233: The Ethics of Flaking – Understanding Symmetric Investment Levels in Dating
(Full Episode Transcript Scroll To Bottom of Page)
Intro
On this episode of Inner Confidence Podcast, Robbie Kramer is joined by Amir to discuss dating strategies and navigating the challenges that come with scheduling. The conversation covers topics such as flaking, symmetric investment levels in relationships, and putting pressure on potential partners. Host Kramer shares his passion for improving men’s love lives and recommends his First Date Protocol as a valuable resource. The episode also explores the benefits of having a robust social circle for meeting potential partners. Tune in for insightful advice on improving your dating game and lifestyle.
Show Notes:
01:50 – “In a perfect world, you sent a girl a Calendly link and let her schedule what day she’s available” – Let’s dive into this week’s episode and discuss flaking!
03:13 – Guest introduction! – Introducing our guest, who is a successful businessman and a lady’s man!
04:26 – “I would never flake” – Guest shares his flaking experience!
06:29 – “Looking through my girlfriend’s phone, it’s unimaginable” – Guest shares how women are bombarded with messages from guys!
07:50 – “The 355 guys in their dm’s! that’s where you live! – Guest breaks down the level of investments in meeting new women!
08:38 – “You are the problem, Robbie!” – Guy blames host for his flaking problems, find out what he did wrong!
09:58 – You don’t matter to her! – Find out why!
11:27 – “If you’re respecting every person’s time, you’re going to have a very hard life!” – Guest goes in on time management!
15:16 – “I showed up at a nightclub with 8 of my girlfriends” – Learn about the power of social circle!
16:20 – Ethics of flaking: you don’t owe anything to anyone who hasn’t invested in you or you to them! – Guest breaks down ethics of flaking!
21:54 – “You can’t take anything seriously, EVER!” – Learn why!
24:20 – “The amount of dick being thrown at her” – Learn about a woman’s perspective on dating apps!
25:51 – “Booking 6 dates for one evening” – Learn how to secure yourself against flaking and have multiple options available!
28:49 – “She’s testing you to see how you handle flaking!” – Learn about this secret unconscious “shit test” from women!
33:03 – “let’s pretend I’m your ex” – Host shares his epic double date story!
35:42 – “Schedule 2-3 date nights with multiple women” – find out why you should do this!
38:36 – How to schedule your social life! – we discuss the struggles of social game and how to go about it!
40:57 – Always have a back-up plan! – Find out why!
44:42 – “Put funny pressure on girls!” – Learn this secret technique to put light pressure in flaky girls!
50:45 – The benefits of having a hot wing woman! – Find out how this will improve your game!
52:00 – “A lot of guys don’t see women as humans” – Guest discusses how a lack of interaction with the opposite sex skews up your perception of women!
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Transcript
Amir [00:00:00]:
Fuck. I’m already the asshole.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:02]:
You cheating fuck! You told me you’re at a business meeting now. Who is this?
Amir [00:00:05]:
Right. The 335 guys in their DMs, and that’s where you live. If you’re going to respect every person’s time, always like, you’re gonna have a really, really hard life. A girl like straight flake on me. Get that messed me up.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:17]:
I really hope one of these girls flakes, because if they don’t totally don’t. You understand? You’re contributing to the problem. You are the problem.
Amir [00:00:24]:
The play. You are the problem, Robbie. I think we can all agree.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:29]:
Welcome to the Interconfidence podcast, where we bring you men’s dating and lifestyle advice that doesn’t suck. I’m your host, Robbie Kramer, a former collegiate golfer turned poker pro turned finance guy who became obsessed with learning about male female attraction and dynamics and passionate about teaching men how to improve and optimize their love life. Tune in each week and we’ll bring you the latest and greatest strategies on how to get more dates, how to build a thriving social circle that brings the best men and women into your life, how to become a better networker, and how to design a lifestyle that makes all your buddies jealous. If you’re new to the show, I recommend you download my first Date Protocol. It’s the best piece of content I have. It’ll help you optimize your first date and subsequent dates. And I like to connect with my listeners personally, so if you want to grab a copy of that, please send me a direct message on Instagram. I’m at Robbie Kramer. Now, let’s dive into this week’s content. So today we are going to talk about date scheduling. Recently, one of the guys in the group posted, it’s so frustrating. I planned my whole week out and a lot of time organizing dates, and then when one cancels, it messes everything up. And a lot of the members in the IC community have been struggling with scheduling dates and maintaining a social calendar once they start attracting a lot of women, right? It’s not easy. You got to navigate a lot of these different issues. And especially if you’re a busy guy with a successful career, you’ve probably really honed your skills when it comes to scheduling for work, right? Like, if you take a logical approach to scheduling, you use a calendar management tool like Calendly. It’s a very straightforward process. And unfortunately, this model really breaks down for dating. Like in a perfect world, you meet a girl, you send her your calendar link, and you have her schedule herself in. And we all know that’s a pipe dream. That ain’t never going to happen. Beautiful women are increasingly flaky, and that trend is really only getting worse because as you see in today’s dating marketplace, there’s an abundance of thirsty and simpy dudes who can’t get a date. They’re putting the pussy on the pedestal and reinforcing flaky behavior, even that much more so on this podcast, we’re really going to dive into the best practices to win the dating game, avoid frustration that comes with flaking and scheduling and really not drive yourself crazy. And the typical successful guy is, like I said, incredibly frustrated with this. And that’s why I invited on Amir, who’s an extremely successful businessman. He runs two different companies and is really helping me within the community to come up with strategies that address this issue because it is a very big issue. So, Amir, welcome to the podcast.
Amir [00:03:03]:
Good to be here, Robbie.
Robbie Kramer [00:03:05]:
So why don’t you give us your experience when it comes to flakes? Because I’m sure you’ve been flaked on before.
Amir [00:03:13]:
Well, first of all, I have a kid half the time. I run many companies. I’m always starting new stuff. And when I say yes to anybody, such as this podcast, I’m saying no to other people, implicitly or explicitly. Right? And I take my word very seriously. And I was getting very upset probably, I don’t know, last year, getting very upset. At one point, I was literally like, are these women bad people? Literally. I was so upset because I couldn’t understand. I’d never felt that before. It was just like it felt really like they’re just terrible human beings because it would stuff like stuff like having to cancel sitters because my date who confirmed flaked on me, right? It was embarrassing, right? It was bad. And then as I worked more with you in the group, I started having many more options. A lot of women wanted to date me, and then I had my first flake or I flaked on somebody. And it was a very eye opening experience. It never would have happened in my past, before I knew how to be a better, more attractive man. It was very hard to get dates, and getting one was like I was all I was thinking about, right? Like, the idea of flaking. Are you kidding me? I’m more likely to show up an hour ahead of time and sit there and wait for them. I would never flake. Right. So it never really came up. Right. But then I had this experience, and it was like I had a date plan called 07:00 whatever. But I even had two plans. I don’t really remember, but it’s, like, got busy at work, and some social obligations came up. And I was kind of anxious throughout the day about like, what am I supposed to do about this date? Am I going to cancel? Am I not going to cancel? Should I reschedule? Was she that hot? I don’t really remember which one she was. Anyway. And then I kind of realize it’s 727. I’m at a party with friends, sort of for work, sort of personal, and my dates in three minutes. And then I’m like, Fuck, I’m already the asshole, right? What do I do? Do I text her? I mean, well, she didn’t text me. And then it’s like, okay, well, I’ll figure it out later. And then later I’m like, well, what do I say? I’ll figure it out even later. And then eventually it’s like 36 hours later and it’s like, well, say lavi, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:05:46]:
Say lovey. Right?
Amir [00:05:47]:
Yeah.
Robbie Kramer [00:05:47]:
You weren’t even sure if so you don’t even know if she showed up.
Amir [00:05:50]:
I don’t know. And I never really made a decision to flake. I never really made a decision to ghost. We’re, like a bunch of stuff that happened. My investment in her and her investment wasn’t high enough that I felt like, vaguely guilty, but there was really no ethical obligation there, right. And so that was this realization of like, oh, this is what it’s like for women, right? Especially really attractive women. Right. As I’ve done better in my dating life and made just like, more honestly, just female friends, I actually learned more from my attractive female friends than dates because my female friends are super real with each other, just looking through their phones, like, oh my God, some of my best friends, taylor is one of my best friends. She absolutely wants to respond to everything I say. I see her phone, it’s unmanageable, you couldn’t possibly keep up with it. Right. And so she’s popping in, right, and she’s looking for specific things or when she gets randomly bored or whatever, but she could not possibly keep up with the number of inbound connections. Right. And understanding that. And now, once my sort of level of abundance and attractiveness went up, that started happening to me, right. Not nearly at a scale that happens to her, right, but still on some scale. And I think I had to start to understand what is appropriate level of priority from them. It is appropriate that this person, they’ve never really met and hasn’t invested in them and they haven’t invested in that person comes fairly low on the priority list. Their priorities are like one, anything related to their career. And keep in mind, for a lot of the more attractive women, their career and their social life are very woven together. Right? Like, some of my friends were models. They’re pretty much the same thing, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:07:39]:
A lot of them are working in the social life industry or nightlife and it’s like, it’s all the same.
Amir [00:07:46]:
Right? So anything that they get FOMO over is going to come up there. Their family guys are already sleeping with, they’re interested in their girlfriends, their guy friends, their pets, working out the relative nutrition of chia seeds and their morning smoothie, the 335 guys in their DMs. And that’s where you live, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:08:03]:
Right.
Amir [00:08:04]:
That’s where you live. And by the way, it’s appropriate, their level of investment is appropriate based off of your level of investment and how much they know you and kind of like understanding that really helps free you from helps free me from this sense of they’re bad people or they don’t respect my time or an ethical obligation that I had. Well, no, I don’t have that same level of ethical obligation to them that I have to you, Robbie, because I don’t know him. We haven’t invested in each other. The bar isn’t the same. Right. That’ll make any sense to you?
Robbie Kramer [00:08:38]:
Totally. And this came up recently with another guy in the group who was he was really upset and he messaged me and he said like this flaking what needs to stop. He was really upset and I gave him the strategy that we’re going to reveal a little bit later. And spoiler alert, it has to do with double booking. In the event where women flake on you to avoid triple booking is the new double booking. Exactly. And he goes, he got even more upset and he goes, don’t you understand you’re contributing to the problem. You are the problem.
Amir [00:09:17]:
You are the problem, Robbie.
Robbie Kramer [00:09:19]:
I think we can all agree you’re contributing to this behavior and I’m like, what? You’re going to change, rid the world of flaking. That’s your new mission in life. And then the conversation sort of spiraled into like a shouting match and you’re stupid. No, you’re stupid. So that didn’t go very well, but he was very vehemently opposed to the idea of double booking and basically saying, because she did X badly, you should do Y badly. And I tried to explain to him that he’s not really seeing the bigger picture there. So we’re going to get into that and going to get into the morality behind some of these strategies. But you already kind of touched on that. It’s like she has no you are so low on her totem pole that you thinking you matter is just wrong. Right. It’s a total misunderstanding of the situation because she’s going to be loyal first to her close friends and family, to her dog, to her workout schedule, like you mentioned, the amount of chia in her moosely every morning, like her social circle, the guys who are already in her life. And you’re so far down on that list, especially if you’re using online dating. Right? Like if you’re not using a social circle strategy, which at least you can get up on that list if you are meeting women through your social circle. But that was just a funny sort of anecdote I wanted to add in. Hopefully the guy listening will get that sort of straightened out for him.
Amir [00:10:49]:
Totally. I mean, there’s this philosophical thing which I don’t think people understand. There is a scope to things like ethics, morality and common wisdom, like laws. For instance, speed limit is 55. Should you go 55? Do you go 55? I don’t go 55.
Robbie Kramer [00:11:12]:
If I’m on the on the highway where it’s 65 in California, I set my cruise control at 79 because I feel like if I get radar 79, you’re on the border, whatever.
Amir [00:11:23]:
Right, but the point is that but as a society as a society. So you’re optimizing for the best use of your time, right? You have objectives, you have a limited amount of time in which you’re awake and sober. Very small window for you, Robbie. I know. And you want to get shit done, right? And so for you, utility is maximized by getting from place to place in an expedient and sort of balancing out safety, right? And you’re perfectly capable of driving 80 miles an hour safely on normal American highways, right? However, as a society, like proper function, stability, all that sort of shit, that is what society is optimized for. We’re not optimizing for whether or not Robbie gets home in time to get laid, right? As a society, we’re optimizing.
Robbie Kramer [00:12:16]:
We should be, but that’s another conversation.
Amir [00:12:19]:
As a society, we’re appropriately optimizing for stability and progress and all these sorts of things that really matter. And therefore we have laws. We have common wisdom, right? Like, kids, you shall go to college. Common wisdom brings the floor up, right? I dropped out of college. College was fucking stupid for me, right. It held me back, right. It wasn’t the right thing for me. And for I think people who have skill sets and the ability to learn on their own and aren’t afraid of risk and whatever, maybe $200,000 in debt isn’t the best utility, right? But as a whole, people should get educated, right? So there’s all this levels to this sort of stuff. And when you talk about things like the ethics and morality of respecting people’s time, it matters at what level you’re talking. If you’re going to respect every person’s time, always, you’re going to have a really hard life because you’re going to be able to get anything done for yourself, especially if you are a high value person and you’ve got a lot of people that want things from you, right? Because what’s going to functionally happen is you’re going to have to make decisions between do you give somebody time or not? And they’re not going to feel respected, right? That’s just real life if you’re a high value person. Right. But as a society, we should respect people’s time. And I think people get really confused about what’s in their individual best interest and what a society needs to function. And people internalize society level rules and wisdom and ethics as like, their duty. And it’s like, that’s cool that you’re dragging that ball around going to make you slower and I’m going to rip by you and I’m going to win in life because you’re being held down by that ball that was never really meant for you. It was meant for society as a whole. Do you know what I’m saying?
Robbie Kramer [00:14:00]:
Yeah, that’s an amazing way to put it and frame it, because that makes a ton of sense. And that’s exactly right. The end of that conversation was like, all right, well, I’m going to continue double and triple booking and enjoy my life while you stay frustrated.
Amir [00:14:13]:
Yeah, well, it’s like the people who bring in politics into individual relationships. It’s like oh, cool. So you’ve decided to destroy the potential happiness of this connection because you want to bring the aggregate, the overall society level ills into this moment because you mistakenly identify with that more than yourself and the human being right in front of you. It’s a very common problem, and it’s just misguided.
Robbie Kramer [00:14:34]:
Right.
Amir [00:14:35]:
Branch over.
Robbie Kramer [00:14:37]:
I enjoyed that.
Amir [00:14:38]:
Thank you.
Robbie Kramer [00:14:39]:
Because you’re on my side. Of course.
Amir [00:14:44]:
But the other thing I would say is but the other thing I want to put out here is everything I just said about my friends, the girls and the priority and stuff like that, it’s actually more true the higher quality of the girl. Right. So if she’s an extrovert with a lot of friends, a lot of stuff, she’s more likely to flake on you. Right. Not because she’s a meaner person or a bad person, because there’s just more shit up the priority list than you are as, like, thirsty guy in her DMs. Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:15:10]:
Yeah. That’s so important to note. And I experienced that personally when I was at the height of my single life. I had a very active social circle. I had tons of leads from that social circle. I stopped doing all the things that got me to that place. Like, I stopped meeting women during the day. I stopped going out and approaching them at bars. I’d show up to a nightclub with eight of my hot girlfriends, and I’d meet other girls just by kind of the ones that make their way around our table. Or I would meet women through their friends and their network. That’s how I met my wife. And I got to the point where girls would hit me up on Instagram and they would ask me out, and I just wouldn’t respond most of the time. Because why would I invest in that random stranger which could be a total flop when I know for sure I’ve got all of these really high quality leads lined up and I don’t have to go on a date. Like, a date seemed like a forced, awkward, much worse use of my time than what I was doing, which was group dates. And every hot girl is living this lifestyle probably to a point that was at least equal, if not better, if she’s really smoking hot in a big city than what I was doing. So to your case in point, I.
Amir [00:16:20]:
Think one of the back to the ethics thing, right? The ethics of flaking what you have to understand is that you don’t owe somebody who you haven’t invested and they haven’t invested back anything. Right. If you take on the ethics of the society at an individual level, it’s a huge burden. And if the other person isn’t doing it back, that’s asymmetric investment. Right. You’re investing more than they are investing back in you. And it’s like, why? Why are you doing that? And it’s because, like, it’s a woman, right? That’s why. That’s why you’re doing it. Right? And you’re creating this asymmetric investment, and they haven’t invested back in you. And the ethics that you think apply, they don’t really apply to that situation. There’s no investment. And you’re talking about at a society level when this is about an individual level, it is appropriate that they have a low investment in you. It’s appropriate that you have also lower investment back in them. And nobody’s bad, nobody’s evil. There’s no anger. Shouldn’t be any anger involved, right? But it’s really hard to feel that way when you’re the one that’s habitually over investing in women you really haven’t met yet. Right? And that’s where I was for a long time. It wasn’t until I had many options and that I understood relative investment levels that I stopped feeling so bound by some sort of duty to uphold a societal ethical standard. When I’m speaking to a woman, I really have no idea who she is. Right? And so it’s appropriate ethically that they’re willing to just kind of cut you out because they don’t know you. They’ve been invested in you, you haven’t invested in them, they don’t owe you anything. It’s appropriate that you’re also willing to do the same thing back, right? That is not to say any behavior is excusable, right? That’s not to say that at all. But I think the better question is what investment level have I seen and what investment level am I going to offer back in return? Most people that are getting their leads online or whatever, they’ve seen almost no investment level, and they should offer almost no investment level right now. That doesn’t mean be stupid, don’t be mean to people, don’t do things that are good. Just don’t spread bad juju. Right. But it does mean expect that because your relative investment levels are so low that it’s very likely something higher priority will take her attention away from you before you can increase that investment level. This time, this time she’s not dead, right? You probably won’t see her. Probably. But I’ve had multiple many. I’ve had many, many sort of like one of us couldn’t make it, whatever, and just reach back out some other time. Like, oh, man, we were supposed to meet up a few weeks ago. I was kind of excited about that. You want to go get that espresso martini this week? Right? Sure. Totally. And actually, what’s funny is because even though because you were cool about the whole thing, now you’ve kind of like ratchet up a little bit, you’re still pretty low priority. You kind of like, ratchet up a little bit, right? I would say match relative investment levels. Don’t take any of it personally and think about it as a logical extension of utility. Like, you have not invested enough. They have not invested enough for them. To feel bound by ethics in this situation. Neither should you. That being said, if a girl is really investing in me, right, like if she’s sending me long, thoughtful texts, trying to reveal who she is, sending pictures, and memes, I might be a little weird out depending on how soon that is. Right. But if she seems good and also just seems like really curious and interested, I’m probably not going to set up a situation in which I might flake on her or whatever because at that point, it is a little mean. At that point, I do feel like there’s a little bit of an ethical standard there. So I think this ethics thing is really important to understand this concept of symmetric levels of investment. Does that make sense?
Robbie Kramer [00:20:12]:
Totally. And I’m glad you made that distinction because, yeah, it’s like you should have a pretty good idea in your mind of what is her likelihood of flaking. Right. And if she’s like above 80, 90%, if she’s confirmed the date, she’s very enthusiastic. She’s sending you cute little things. That girl’s probably not going to flake. And if you flake on her, that’s going to kill the connection quite a bit. Versus if you flake on a girl where there’s not much investment at all, that might actually improve the connection. She might be like, oh, wow, I thought this guy was kind of a loser, but totally a thing.
Amir [00:20:54]:
Totally a thing.
Robbie Kramer [00:20:55]:
He’s flaking on him. Wow, I might have misjudged this guy. Like, he’s flaking on me. I don’t even know the last time I’ve been flaked on. This is interesting. I should give this guy a harder look.
Amir [00:21:04]:
Totally. Right? I’ve had those girls starting to chase me before, or even on a different medium, right? Like, all of a sudden they’re in my IG. We were texting before. It’s totally right? I think the flow that happened was I gave them their IG. They didn’t bother to follow it. We were texting. Then I was like, hey, I can’t make it. Can you this time? They’re like, can’t make it. I was like, well, whatever. Next time, right? And then they’re like, who the fuck is this guy? They go, follow me on IG, right? And then they see my IG and they like, oh, this dude seems fairly legit. And then they comment on one of my pictures. Right? Now they’re in my DMs right?
Robbie Kramer [00:21:45]:
Now they’re watching your stories and they’re in your long term, long game sort of dating.
Amir [00:21:50]:
Totally. Right? And I think one of the other principles here is just like, you can’t take anything seriously ever. You just can’t because it’s a low status thing to do. If you care, you’re asymmetrically invested. Right? If you don’t care because investment levels are low, you go in so many dates, you have so many options that honestly, like a couple of hours to just chill out and watch TV sounds fucking awesome. Then your status is really high. And that’s when you can win, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:22:24]:
Yeah. It’s like a lot of guys and I see this all the time because a lot of guys come to me who are in a similar sort of situation as you. Like, very successful business guys, right? And they’re very automated, they’re very efficient. Everything they do when it comes to business is like, it’s lean and it’s like, we’re going to schedule this thing. Right. And then I see how much that doesn’t translate into dating life. Like being rigid, being perfect, being automated, being efficient. That does not work with women. In fact, you need to totally change the mindset to being chill, nonreactive, going with the flow. It’s all good. I’ve got other shit going on is a much better motto. And anytime you find yourself getting reactive, taking it personally when a girl flakes or asked to reschedule and you’d be like, this is really screwing up my schedule, that’s the sort of mindset you need to switch.
Amir [00:23:18]:
Yeah. It’s still hard, though. I remember I had that situation a few weeks ago where a girl straight flaked on me on, like, a date six. That messed that messed me up because I was really into her, and he was just like, oh, my God, that messed me up so bad. Turned out she unflaked and whatever, but that was bad.
Robbie Kramer [00:23:39]:
Turns out there was a real reason for it. It wasn’t like a total flake, right?
Amir [00:23:44]:
It was a stupid reason. She solved the normal problem in the stupidest way possible, which to her was like a blocker, but to you would just be like, well, obviously you just do this other thing. Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:23:53]:
Right. Well, I can see how it was like a situation where it would totally take you by surprise and you might lose your ability to rationalize and approach it optimally 100%.
Amir [00:24:09]:
She’s a super sweet girl, by the way. Like, super sweet. So I wanted to get like it really helped for me to develop an understanding and empathy from where they’re coming from. And really having a bunch of female friends has been helpful, just seeing what it’s like. Dude. Robbie, I helped Taylor sign up for Hinge the other day, and, my God, the amount of dick being thrown at her is like I cannot explain it in words. Right. It helped to develop that an empathy of the situation that they’re in.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:36]:
What did that look like when you logged into her Hinge or when she showed you her hinge?
Amir [00:24:39]:
Dude, I set it up for her, like, 06:00 P.m. On, like, a Tuesday. We were out of the boat. She messaged me on Wednesday and was just like a picture of her lock screen. It was just like, all Hinge matches. And I logged in and there’s like, a cap on the number of active likes you can have. So it just permanently capped at, like I think it was like 100 every time you would like X on one. It would just stay capped because there was, like another infinite line of hungry guys who had already liked her. And then she’s like, well, how do I find the ones that I liked? I’m like, well, you got to wait for them to log in. And in the meantime, you’re just getting smashed in the forehead with all these thirsty dudes. And she’s just like, oh my God, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:25:21]:
And this is hinge. Hinge. From the data that I’ve pulled from the guys in the group and other guys that I know in the space, they’re like, hinge is the best dating app in most of the big western cities these days. It’s like the one where you’re more likely to get noticed, right, if it was Tinder or Bumble, I don’t even know.
Amir [00:25:41]:
Well, it’s like, how can they discern it from any one of these guys? They end up being like the one with the cowboy hat, right? Because that’s the only way you could stand up. Tactically. I don’t really do this anymore because I’m busy, I’m seeing somebody, like all that sort of stuff. But when I was, like in full date mode, I actually would do sort of three windows, like a 630 window, an eight window, or 930. Maybe it was 7910, I don’t exactly remember. But I would have three windows and I’d book two girls per window, maybe two to three times a week I would do this and I would confirm all of them around 11:00 a.m.. Or noon, five, six, text you’re booking six.
Robbie Kramer [00:26:28]:
Dates for that evening?
Amir [00:26:30]:
That evening, yeah. And I try to book for, like, next day or two days out. Any further than that, they don’t really plan next day either. Right? But any further than that is just total shit show. I would then confirm all of them at, like, noon. If I got two in this time slot to confirm, which didn’t happen that often, almost always one of the later time slots didn’t confirm. And I would wait until like, three and I would text the one that double confirmed be like, hey, actually something came up. Can you do this other time? Right? And so then I would kind of make it work out. And even still, then if I actually got three confirmed out of six, I might get two dates. Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:27:12]:
Right.
Amir [00:27:12]:
Because one of them just ghosts.
Robbie Kramer [00:27:14]:
I feel like the flake rate has got to be around like two thirds. 67%.
Amir [00:27:20]:
Well, and it’s like when you start measuring matters, right, and how you set it up matters because there’s girls who don’t want to give you their phone number. They’re like, oh, let’s just set it up over the app. There’s like a 1% chance you ever going to see that girl, right? All that sort of stuff goes in. But yeah, if you just plan on I would say if I have three dates planned, if I expect that one. Of them works out. I’m like, that sounds about right. The most common thing I do is actually just push one back a couple of hours or whatever, right? And by the way, every now and then you’ll just go on a killer date with the first one and just be like, I’m not leaving. Yeah, I used to do that. I used to make myself go on all of them, but after a while I was like, no way, this one’s going great. And I would just the other ones, hey, something came up. Like, can’t make it. I’ll hit you up tomorrow. Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:28:18]:
Go ahead.
Amir [00:28:19]:
What I was going to say is if you do this for a while, what happens is your dates stop being all new girls and they start to be like some new ones and then some reschedules from before. So you end up with and the reschedules have a very low flake rate, actually, right? Because once you’ve changed it on them or you’ve been cool about them rescheduling, you end up having a little more banter, increases relative investment levels, and it actually reduces the flake rate. I mean, it’s still higher than a girl you’ve been seeing for a while, but it’s not as high as new girl flake rates. So then actually your flake rates start to go down. Over time, you get more predictability.
Robbie Kramer [00:28:50]:
Right? I think it’s like an unconscious shit test in a way. She’s probably not going to intentionally flake. The odds of something not coming up are extremely low. Right? But when she does flake, she’s testing you to see how you’re going to handle it, and if you handle it well, that’s going to increase investment, as you said. And I noticed the same thing. I did a challenge back in 2013 when I was living in New York City. This is ten years ago, but it was right when Tinder was like, getting going. I tried to go on 51st dates in a month, in 30 days, so I had to triple book every night. I had a 06:00, an 08:00, and a 10:00 slot, just like you were explaining. And because I was trying to go on 51st dates, I would intentionally end dates. But then as that continued, and second dates, third dates started trickling in and it just became incredibly overwhelming. But I was like, all right, well, how can I deal with this? Well, I’m going to schedule the ones I like the most towards the end of the evening. So if things do go well, then I don’t have that shot clock to end the date. And it was very eye opening, just like being in that level of abundance where you go from like, oh, my God, I hope this girl doesn’t flake, to like, I really hope one of these girls flakes.
Amir [00:30:08]:
Because if they don’t, well, actually, there’s that. But I also start thinking about the vibe. It’s like, well, if I’m really excited about this girl at 730. I don’t want to put a girl that might be kind of a boner at 630, because then I’m in, like, a bad mood. I start optimizing. I’m like this whole other level. Right. I’m pretty sure I did 50 dates in a month. At one point, there was a period. Tell me close.
Robbie Kramer [00:30:39]:
I was trying to do just first dates. When you add in the second, the third dates, and then the girls, you start casually dating. That it’s just I mean, you hit that very easily if it’s your full time job and you have a lot of time to date. But I think taking two case studies would be good. And the first case study I want to look at is the guy who has not yet sort of leaned into building his social circle, the guy who’s just, like, going on a ton of dates, like what we just talked about. Right. And then the next case study would be a guy who has a pretty thriving social circle where he’s building that social circle, and he’s also trying to schedule out his calendar. Right. Because then you’ve got girls, you’re seeing friends. There’s way more variables involved. So do you think we can dive into those two case studies?
Amir [00:31:34]:
Yeah. Real before you do that, the one thing I wanted to throw out there, because I get this a lot, is, like, how often does this blow up on you? Right. I just want you guys to really hear never. I’ve never had a really bad outcome. I’ve had a girl that I said we’d reschedule with, and then we couldn’t make it work or whatever, but I’ve never had whatever you imagine badness. I’ve never had any of that. Right. And if anything, actually what’s happened now is my status and options have gotten to the point that what will happen is these girls do the sort of unconscious shit test, and I’ll pass with flying colors. They don’t give a shit, and then I won’t ever see them because I also don’t give a shit, and then they’re chasing me on IG. Right. So I just really want to take away the ethical thing by explaining how ethics actually should work at the individual level versus the societal level. And I want to take away the fear of it blowing up and whatever killing your whatever the hell you’ve concocted in your head guys about. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen. All that’s going to happen.
Robbie Kramer [00:32:44]:
Have you ever had a girl show up that you forgot to cancel on because you were just having so much fun on the date or anything like that?
Amir [00:32:54]:
No, never anything happened like that. You might be a bigger asshole than me, Robbie.
Robbie Kramer [00:32:59]:
I didn’t have that happen. But I did have a kind of a funny story where I had a date scheduled for, like, 830 at the bar below my house, and before that, I went down to just kind of warm up and have a drink, and I ended up meeting this girl that was awesome. And we were like totally vibing. And the first date I had was with this tinder girl that I didn’t really care about. And I told the girl that was vibing with them, hey, I have a date showing up, which is kind of annoying. I’d rather just keep hanging with you. And she’s like, let’s fuck with her. Let’s pretend that I’m your ex.
Amir [00:33:36]:
This is mean, dude.
Robbie Kramer [00:33:38]:
I know it’s horrible, but the outcome was pretty funny. So the girl shows up and then we’re chatting. I wasn’t into her, but she seemed really into me. And then the other girl walks over and she’s like, you cheating fuck. You told me you’re at a business meeting. Who is this?
Amir [00:33:56]:
Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:33:56]:
She’s pretending to and then she storms off. And I say the girl like, oh, I’m so sorry. I’m a jerk, I’m an asshole. And she’s like, it’s cool. Let’s just go to another place. And I’m like, what? And then the whole thing ended up blowing up in my face because the girl that was was pulling the prank on me never responded to me after that. So I ended the date with, you know, ended the date with the other one. I was a jerk. Karma got the best of me.
Amir [00:34:27]:
So wait, are you saying the sort of woman who would randomly want to prank a stranger would also be the sort of woman who is simultaneously pranking you?
Robbie Kramer [00:34:37]:
Hard to believe, but yes.
Amir [00:34:40]:
What do you know? I don’t condone any of that, by the way. I don’t condone that.
Robbie Kramer [00:34:45]:
I don’t condone that behavior either. That was mean and I deserved what I got. That was fucked up. Anyways, what were you saying before I cut in?
Amir [00:34:57]:
I don’t know. But the point was I just wanted to take away this fear of things blowing up. It’s not really not going to happen. Actually, more than anything, having this better frame of mind and having this strategy is just going to make you a more relaxed, happier person to go on dates with, right? It’s going to help you understand where they’re at and have more appropriate expectations. And so I should really want guys to hear that when you’re thinking about the stuff the wrong way, those flakes hurt badly. But once you understand it, it makes sense. It doesn’t hurt as much. You just plan for it, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:35:36]:
So if you’re a dude who’s trying to build his sort of dating life, trying to have more options out there, my advice would be to schedule like two or three date nights exactly what you did. Take Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday. Right. Not Friday, not Saturday. Because if you schedule dates on those two nights, you’re going to be missing out on other social events and the highest quality girls are going to flake on you anyways, because odds of them being free are like, very slim to none.
Amir [00:36:08]:
Nobody who’s high status is going to see a new random person at 07:30 P.m. On a Friday, right.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:15]:
And if you ask for that date, that’s going to be a red flag. And if a girl tells you that she’s only free on a Friday or Saturday, that’s usually a pretty big red flag, too, unless you really are looking for a relationship. And even that’s the wrong mentality in the wrong mindset. The only girls that are going to be free on a Friday or Saturday are girls who are extremely busy with work, have very nothing.
Amir [00:36:41]:
No, the other thing I see with her a lot is just somebody wants a free dinner, like saying 730 on a Friday, take me to a restaurant. Is this like, I want somebody to buy me a steak.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:50]:
Right?
Amir [00:36:51]:
Yeah.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:52]:
So would you agree with the points of don’t try to schedule dates on weekends if a girl is only free on the weekend? Maybe you lean into that, whatever take as a case by case, but it’s a red flag, and aim for like two or three nights per week where you’re stacking multiple dates.
Amir [00:37:12]:
Yeah. There’s a time and place for that. And most I think the guys are in that time and place or they’re before that. Most guys don’t have enough leads to do that, but once you do, I think that’s the right way to do it, to manage your own psychology and actually just be like a healthier dater. Right. But then eventually what happens is it’s just not an issue, right. Because eventually you’ve got so many options that a flake is like, well, thank God, right. But yes, I agree. No weekends, double book, triple book, whatever. Don’t take it personally. Be super chill about everything. If I text to confirmation at 11:00 a.m. Or whatever and I don’t get a response back, they don’t hear from me, right. If they come back at me with like, oh, whatever, I have to reschedule. I’m super chill about it. I’ll reschedule with them if they come back to me the next day, whatever. But if they don’t confirm, they don’t confirm. And I just have other options, right. I might, if I was really into her follow up the next day. Right. I have occasionally tried to force it by saying, like, hey, if I don’t hear back from you by three, like, I’m going to do something else. And I sort of don’t think that’s a good play anymore.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:19]:
Right. Yeah. Anything else we need to talk about when it comes to just sort of the straightforward date scheduling strategy?
Amir [00:38:29]:
No, I think the place that I’m now is more just like it’s like, after you’re seeing people, how do you schedule but that’s a different conversation.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:37]:
Right? Well, I wanted to lean into more of how do you schedule your sort of social life? If you’re doing hosting events and doing those sorts of things. And how do you manage all of that?
Amir [00:38:49]:
I would say this is a place that I’m frustrated by currently. And I’m learning from some of the guys in the Brown Belt Lounge. Some of your more advanced guys like Kamani, who’s just a stud, have been kind of helping me understand the mindset, the mindset there. But I mean, this whole thing continues, right? What starts to happen is even once you are on the priority list, even relatively high up on the priority list, a lot of these women, especially high value women, they just don’t plan anything that isn’t like their career or their family more than 12 hours out or 36 hours out or whatever it is. They just don’t they don’t need to. Right. Their obligations are to their family and their career. And a lot of times, by the way, by the way, their career is also social life. Right. And so they don’t and then, so even once you are a priority, you become as high as you can get without being blood. Right. To them. Even then it can be frustrating because you’re like, I’ve got these tickets for this show. This is the girl I want to go with. I won’t get an answer from her until the day of. Once I do that, it narrows my other options and you end up in this frustrating place of, well, what do I do? Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:40:01]:
Right.
Amir [00:40:01]:
And I find this to be this to be really incredibly challenging and frustrating. And some of the guys in the group, I think Kamani said, first of all, just like, slow your role, appreciate that you’re in a very good situation, which he’s totally right. And then he said, I sort of prioritize based on who I want to spend my time with at night. And I just kind of like, kind of go down the list and I accept that every now and then it’s not going to work out and that’s just life. And I think that’s probably the only answer. But you can see the same themes that are over here kind of played out across the board. Right? They don’t plan their life that way because they have a lower level of overall responsibility. They have plentiful social options, and there’s really no advantage for them to plan their life that way. And my expectation that they do is just misguided. But it’s still hard to deal with that reality when my time is actually incredibly valuable. And also, frankly, I want what I want.
Robbie Kramer [00:40:59]:
Right? Yeah. I think to avoid that feeling of just having that night go to waste, I think the key is to always have a backup plan and have the expectations of the worst case scenario and have a plan for that. And that’s tough when you have show tickets because you really like to go to concerts, for example, and it’s like at the end of the day, if you get stuck with two tickets and no one to go with, are you going to go alone? Well, probably not. Maybe if you really like the show, but that’s going to be a huge let down, you know what I mean? So I would look for ways to avoid that or have a backup plan or just being like, okay, that’s part of the process. And I know if I’m going to do those things, there’s a high chance of that happening. Or maybe having like a guy friend who’s on point ready to go if all else fails.
Amir [00:41:58]:
Yeah. Basically I have a show. It’s like I have generally one girl I’m very interested in, right. And if she can’t go, there’s probably a couple that I’m somewhat interested in. Right. And then after that there’s like my girlfriends that I’m not interested in but I love spending time with and then somewhere distantly below that, it’s my male friends. Sorry guys.
Robbie Kramer [00:42:25]:
Yeah, right. Yeah. And it’s like also as the time gets closer to the show, the invite is way less likely to be accepted.
Amir [00:42:35]:
Right. And that’s what happens, is you hold out for the one you really want. They plan on sort of like a twelve hour time notice maximum. And then you sort of in this frantic position of having to text other people to try to do it. It sucks. Just a sucky feeling, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:42:50]:
Yeah. I think one way to possibly get around that would be to always have a wingman to go with and then you’re both scheduling people to show up. You’ve got the people that you want the most and then like, worst case scenario, you guys both completely strike out and you end up with each other.
Amir [00:43:10]:
Yeah, I mean, striking out together is fun actually. You end up fucking around. It’s a good time.
Robbie Kramer [00:43:15]:
Then you have a bro night, right? A bro man’s night or whatever.
Amir [00:43:18]:
It’s great.
Robbie Kramer [00:43:19]:
Yeah. I used to do that with Nightlife because I was never a big show goer, concert goer. But I’d like split a bottle with a buddy at a nightclub and we would all invite our friends and worst case scenario, we end up going alone and then we meet girls at the nightclub together. Right. We still have the table and I’m not going to show up if he didn’t show up. But I’ve got that foolproof sort of backup plan either way.
Amir [00:43:47]:
Yeah. I mean when you end up with a buddy and the girls in the show, you can kind of find things to do and make it. Some of my best nights have turned out that way. I think for me it’s just the managing the anxiety of it in all the build up. Right. Especially if I’ve got my son, I’ve got to book sitters, I’m taking time away from him to deal with this. Managing the anxiety and the build up process is where I’m at. It’s not a fear that I won’t get a date. It’s just like the uncertainty around my schedule and it’s not the sort of thing you can triple book, right? You can’t be like, fine, well, I’ll triple book my date for this one show.
Robbie Kramer [00:44:24]:
Well, Kamani had a good response to that, actually, because he said to put in the invite, if I don’t hear back from you, this seat will be taken, sort of deal.
Amir [00:44:35]:
I don’t remember I actually used to do that. And now that I think about it, it worked and I forgot about that, but like, damn it, I need to do it again. Another thing, I actually put some of this in discord. I’ve started really putting funny pressure on girls, like when they’re kind of non committal, right? So let me see if I can read this one. So I said, Morning, heading to see Tuvlo tonight with friends, got an extra ticket, want to join us? And she says, I’m flying back from Utah today, I might be able to make it. What time and where is the event? And I said, Stubs the doors at seven, she’ll be on at nine. And I said, Flight plus show seems like a lot in one day. What time does your flight get in? Right? So now I’m kind of turning it back on her and she’s like, 05:30 p.m.. I could possibly make it. I love her music. And my reply was, seems high risk to me. Are you the kind of girl to deprive someone else of a ticket and no show and then just like, lol? Yeah, love it. Yeah. And then she says, no, I’m not that kind of person. Maybe I shouldn’t risk it. I really appreciate the invite. Yeah, you got it. I’ll put you on the first standby list. Let me know if you want to come or let me know or something. I said, yeah, you got it. Hit me up when you land. If you got the energy, I’ll put you up first on the standby list. And she sounds good and hearts it. And then later that night she’s like, hearting the stories, right? And it’s like a way of demonstrating a lot of value, but also sort of like forcing.
Robbie Kramer [00:46:02]:
I love that because you’re being playful, you’re showing that you’re not attached. You’re letting her sort of flake with grace by applying pressure to give an answer. But it doesn’t have to be the answer that is going to let you down. You’re like, It’s okay to give me this sort of bad news. In fact, I would prefer the bad news early in a funny way, right?
Amir [00:46:28]:
I did that like three times.
Robbie Kramer [00:46:30]:
That just gives someone so much space to just appreciate you because very rarely do they get that sort of level of communication where they’re okay with whatever outcome or they feel comfortable with whatever outcome.
Amir [00:46:47]:
Well, I’m showing I have options and I’m not needy, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:46:51]:
Right.
Amir [00:46:54]:
If you look at what guys? Those are the things most guys don’t have options and they’re needy. Right. That’s what they see. And most guys also are going to get their feelings hurt. And I’m like, I’m a big boy. Whatever.
Robbie Kramer [00:47:06]:
Show tickets, they were $250 each. And now you’re flaking. Oh, my God.
Amir [00:47:10]:
Yeah, exactly. It’s like, oh, well, that’s super sexy. Totally. Yeah. So, I don’t know. I mean, I’m getting better, but this is definitely an area that I struggle in. And it’s especially a struggle when I really do have feelings for a girl, which, you know, I want to do, and I want to make plans with them, but I can’t jam it down their throat because that’s not how they work. And so I have to live in the ambiguity and just accept and it’s hard as somebody that likes to have complete control of how my time is going to play out.
Robbie Kramer [00:47:44]:
Yeah. And for that, that’s so hard because I remember when I met my wife, I had a ton of options, and it didn’t matter if she flaked or not because I had other options, but it really mattered because I wanted to hang out with her. And it’s like there’s not like I could do anything to the more I try to force that outcome or push that outcome, the worse off I am. So as the stakes get higher and you get more invested into someone, it’s like there’s really nothing you can do but just try to remain cool and sort of go with the flow of the situation. Feel the vibes, as you like to say. Right.
Amir [00:48:30]:
Fuck the vibes, Robbie.
Robbie Kramer [00:48:34]:
Yeah, fuck the vibes. So, yeah. Are there any other situations that you feel like we didn’t cover? High end social circle stuff? I mean, I think what we mentioned as far as an expiring invite, right. When you’re sending multiple invites out, if there’s that sense of urgency and just being honest about the fact that, listen, it’s cool if you don’t respond to this, but I’m going to give the seat away. Right. I think that solves a lot of the issues.
Amir [00:49:05]:
There a lot of this stuff couples really well with social circle. Social media. For me, that sort of stuff works really well because the girls follow me on IG and then they see the other girls that went instead of them. Right, exactly. It’s not empty. And they absolutely realize that I’ve got options. So these things really pair nicely together. I think without options, without social media, it gets a lot harder, I think, because then you are sort of functionally lower down in the totem pole of investment levels and interest.
Robbie Kramer [00:49:43]:
And then you get to a point as well where you have a small group of women who have expressed a lot of interest in the shows that they’ve missed. Right. If you go to three shows and they couldn’t come to the first one, but if you don’t extend the invite to the second one and then they respond to the story and they say, oh, that looks so awesome. And then if you apply a little bit more, it’s not really applying pressure, but if you don’t invite her to the next one and then she’s like, where’s my invite? You know for sure she’s coming to the one after that.
Amir [00:50:15]:
Oh, for sure. And what also happens is I get my core girls which are like, I’m not in any sort of dating situation with, but they’re my homies, right? And then it’s like, well look, even if my love interest or whatever can’t make it, these girls are dope. We’re going to have a good time, we’re going to look sexy, it’s going to be great content. So it starts to kind of you end up in this place where you’re just pretty cool with whatever, right? And then whatever the love interest is, is going to see you on IG. And they’re like, fuck.
Robbie Kramer [00:50:50]:
Yeah. Having that really hot wing woman who you’re down to just go out and have an awesome time with, even if that’s friend zone, that’s awesome because other girls are going to see that. That’s going to build attraction. You’re going to have a great time. You’re still kind of getting that dose of feminine energy. I guess you could say that’s. What I really loved about having female friends is like, I could go out with them and even though we were platonic, I still felt like there was that good sort of feeling of interacting with a beautiful, feminine creature. With the risk of sounding like a woo woo idiot, but that is a real thing versus.
Amir [00:51:32]:
Dude. The girls too love being having the masculine energy around and it’s a good vibe and dude, that’s actually something I’ve noticed about some of the guys struggle with I’ve had just as many struggles with women as anybody, if not more. I love having women around and actually if I really, really love having a particular woman around, I might friends on her because I know any sort of sexual relationship will take her out of my life. Right? I know, you know, I’ve done that with a couple and I really enjoy their company. It’s fun. I like making them laugh. I like fucking around with them. Right. I like that energy and it’s not sexual. And I think that’s like a big deal. I think a lot of the guys I see get stuck because they actually sort of fundamentally don’t see the women as people. Yet on some level they see the women as targets or opportunities. And it’s just like that I think comes from a lack of interaction with women over long periods of time where they realize like, no, they’re like great people, but fantastic people. And by the way, some of the women that I love most in my life platonically are totally flaking on guys, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:52:38]:
Totally. There’s a process that guys go through, which is like if you’re like me, which a lot of the guys are, it’s like you’re the quintessential nice guy and you’re able to have female friends and maybe you start from that place, but you’re getting friend zoned by every girl that you actually like and that’s really painful. Right? And then you kind of need to go through a phase where you’re avoiding the friend zone and you’re being more direct and you’re kind of putting your balls in the line a little bit more and it’s like you’re guarding against the friend zone thing. But then you come full circle. And then kind of once you get past that and you’re no longer worried about the friends, then you can fully embrace the friend zone, and you can funnel all of your women first into the friend zone, and then eventually from there, hey, you just might end up dating one of those friends. But you can’t do that if you have no experience, if you’re uncomfortable with sexual tension, if you haven’t had a lot of days and gotten those reps in. But it’s cool how that process does come full circle for guys.
Amir [00:53:44]:
No, it’s totally right. It’s funny now it’s almost become you said friend zoning has become a shit test once a woman realizes that I’m not with her, at least looking for because my actual answer is like, are you for a relationship? It’s like, well, it depends who’s asking, right? But when they realize I’m not looking for with her, one frequent thing they’ll do is be like, well, let’s just be friends. And I’m like, Fuck, yes. That is a great idea. I love that. In fact, I’m telling you, a bunch of my friends to the show like, you want to join us? It’s going to be awesome, right? And then they’re like, wait, what? And then they’re sort of voluntarily in the friend zone, but they’re not sure if it was actual like their idea anymore. Right? And then attraction is just like it’s confusing and arousing.
Robbie Kramer [00:54:34]:
I love that. It’s so good. Anytime you can throw a woman for a curveball, right. She’s going to think twice about like, oh, what’s going on here? This is a lot more interesting than I thought.
Amir [00:54:45]:
Totally. Yeah. I think it’s all I got, my friend.
Robbie Kramer [00:54:49]:
Yeah, man. I think that’s a perfect place to leave off. I think we covered the gamut when it comes to dealing with flakes. Double booking, triple booking, sex toplet booking is I guess what we were talking about, booking six in one evening.
Amir [00:55:04]:
Three not having sex with six girls.
Robbie Kramer [00:55:11]:
Yeah, may well could be. But dude, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and some of those points you raised about morality and cultural morality versus individual morality, like that was gold. You can apply that to so many different areas of life.
Amir [00:55:28]:
Yeah, my friend. It’s what happens when you’re over function like I do.
Robbie Kramer [00:55:35]:
All right, guys, and thanks for you live listeners who tuned in, and we’ll see you next time.
Amir [00:55:41]:
Peace, buddy.
Robbie Kramer [00:55:42]:
Peace. I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. If you’re new to the show and digging our content, please leave us a five star review on itunes, Stitcher, YouTube, wherever you listen or watch. But if you’re not really digging it, go ahead. Just don’t leave us any review at all. That’d be great. If you’re feeling a little bit stuck or you just want to optimize and step up your game, we’ve opened up a few spots in our inner confidence community. We’re accepting applications. If you want to join our select group of men and experience a radical power of accountability, cross everything off your sexual bucket list and just become a beast who gets more stuff done. To learn more and apply, go to start. innerconfidence.com.
