238: The Broken Relationship – Working Twice As Hard For Half As Much Love
Transcript – Scroll To Bottom
Intro :
On this episode of Inner Confidence Podcast, host Robbie Kramer and guest Mariia Kramer discuss a set of rules for single men to live by on their dating journey to attract high-quality women and get the most out of the experience. They cover topics like not investing time in a girl who’s not drinking at a club, slowing down during a date, avoiding girly drinks, and avoiding bringing up depressing topics like war during casual conversation. They also cover tips on inviting someone back to your house after a party and getting a girl’s phone number. Tune in to find out more about these rules!
Show Notes:
[00:02:00] Patterns in relationships and personality disorders.
[00:08:42] “Tumultuous relationship with ambiguous beginning and pursuit.”
[00:11:23] Power struggle and shattered intimacy in relationship.
[00:20:45] Unexpected relationship, unrecognized avoidant personality disorder.
[00:24:41] Perfect start, but warning signs emerged later.
[00:30:02] Intimacy issues with partner, intentional disconnection.
[00:36:09] New relationship quickly loses physical intimacy.
[00:38:35] Left Coachella trip, had threesome, drama.
[00:44:19] Intense eye contact, always chasing thrills.
[00:51:35] Coping with monogamy struggles through infidelity.
[00:55:24] RV turned sex party, jealousy and fights ensued.
[01:03:39] Prioritized his needs, learned to care differently.
[01:09:40] Nonstop festivals, depression, emotional breakdown, breakup.
[01:12:09] Toxic relationship caused personal deterioration & sexual anxiety.
[01:20:45] Cyclicality and triggers caused addictive behavior.
[01:22:38] Friends’ sex mistaken for abuse; relationship damaged.
[01:31:02] Salvage relationship, leave with no regrets.
[01:34:57] Relationship escalates, turns inwards, asymmetric effort.
[01:39:36] Gifts: Robbie, ex-wife, jealousy, shame.
[01:45:38] Taking risks, clear communication helped progress.
[01:52:07] Experience is the best teacher.
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Transcript :
Robbie Kramer [00:00:00]:
Oh, you got her off. And then she’s just like, See you later.
Taylor [00:00:02]:
Oh. And I’m like, he almost said, like, he loved me a few times.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:05]:
Our mutual friends would have this very aggressive and wild sex. I don’t even know how to make a move on my girlfriend. This is ridiculous.
Taylor [00:00:12]:
Like, I don’t want to hear anything about it. I don’t want to hear it. Nope, we’re good. We’re good. We’re mine.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:17]:
When I stumbled across the avoidant personality, I was like, holy shit, I am doing all of these things. She’s like, you want to go and get some ass on the side? I’m cool with that. And it was basically a moving sex.
Taylor [00:00:28]:
Party, paying more attention to their actions and letting that speak more loudly than their words.
Robbie Kramer [00:00:32]:
Welcome to the Interconfidence Podcast, where we bring you men’s dating and lifestyle advice that doesn’t suck. I’m your host, Robbie Kramer, a former collegiate golfer turned poker pro turned finance guy who became obsessed with learning about male female attraction and dynamics and passionate about teaching men how to improve and optimize their love life. Tune in each week and we’ll bring you the latest and greatest strategies on how to get more dates, how to build a thriving social circle that brings the best men and women into your life, how to become a better networker, and how to design a lifestyle that makes all your buddies jealous. If you’re new to the show, I recommend you download my first Date Protocol. It’s the best piece of content I have. It’ll help you optimize your first date and subsequent dates. And I like to connect with my listeners personally, so if you want to grab a copy of that, please send me a direct message on Instagram. I’m at Robbie Kramer. Now, let’s dive into this week’s content. Welcome back to the Interconfidence podcast. We are with two very special guests. One of those is Amir, who we’ve had on the show a couple of times, and the other is Taylor. And they are coming straight for us from Austin, Texas, with the beautiful background that is not a photograph on the wall. We promise that’s real. And they’re also drinking espresso martinis. I’m drinking tequila.
Taylor [00:01:52]:
We have some for backup.
Robbie Kramer [00:02:00]:
So while they’re drinking, we’re going to be talking about an interesting topic today, closely defined as avoidant personality disorder, but as we know, all these different personality disorders. And I say that with the quotes. It’s all sort of clinical, psycho, babble stuff. Is it true? Is it not? I don’t want to get into that. But what I do find really interesting is that most of the time in my experience, when I’ve dated a girl who’s done lots of crazy, wacky stuff that I didn’t expect, I’ve seen a lot of patterns in women that I’ve dated, and I’ve also seen the patterns in myself when I was in the wrong relationships. And those patterns would categorize me as either a narcissist or my partner as a narcissist, or avoidant or multiple personality disorder or borderline personality disorder. What’s the other one? What’s Bpd? Bipolar. Right. You’ve got all these different they’re all comorbid with each other, which means they’re all overlapping like crazy. So if you think your girlfriend’s a narcissist, she’s probably avoidant in many ways. If she has multiple personality disorder, one of those personalities is probably avoidant. I think an easier way to just kind of lump a lot of these things up and call a spade a spade is when you’re dating someone who doesn’t just really show up and give you love and show you affection and kind of behave in a way that a normal partner should. We can kind of throw that under the classification of avoidant, I guess you could say. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today.
Amir [00:03:42]:
Avoidance is avoidance is pretty distinct from some of the others. I’ve got a lot of experience with borderline, but avoidance, it feels like a unique beast to me. Do you agree?
Robbie Kramer [00:03:54]:
I do agree, yeah. I mean, the twelve year old definition of avoidant personality disorder is someone who’s so scared of rejection that they’re never going to platform speak. They’re never going to put themselves out there. They’re definitely never going to date because of the possibility of rejection. But obviously we’re talking about situations where people are dating, right? And now how that disorder kind of manifests into a partner and when it comes to, I guess, a more clinical definition of they call it AvPD, and it’s categorized by pervasive patterns of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation. It’s a chronic condition that usually begins in early adulthood. And these people decline jobs out of fear of disappointment. They’re like avoiding social situations, as I mentioned. They don’t want to be negatively evaluated. They desire affection and acceptance. And they may fantasize about the ideal relationships, but that fear of rejection leads them to sabotaging those relationships or avoiding the closeness in relationships.
Taylor [00:05:06]:
This is btvo, this is similar to avoiding too.
Amir [00:05:13]:
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know just.
Taylor [00:05:15]:
The last part really. But yeah, they’re all, like you said, kind of blending with each other. Some are more prominent than others.
Robbie Kramer [00:05:24]:
Yeah. These things definitely impair someone’s ability to be in a relationship and to experience all the benefits of a relationship. So I’m excited because I get to share some stories about some avoided partners. And Amir and Taylor are going to be the same. Amir is going to kind of help me co host. So what are we talking about next now that we find it?
Amir [00:05:57]:
Well, no, I love the definition, Robbie. Thank you. I think these definitions are useful, but not that rigid. It doesn’t matter whether a person has a disorder. It’s like these classifications help you identify behavior patterns. Right. And I feel like if they have tendencies that are like that, for our purposes, we can just say they’re avoid. We don’t have to worry about whether they’re in the DSM as avoidant because who the fuck cares? Right? We want the useful sort of practical thing which is like, they display these tendencies and have their partners. That’s what matters to us. Right. And so that’s kind of the lens. I figure first I wish wanted to kind of each of us talk a little bit through some of our experiences of land people. I very recently, as of like three days ago or something, ended a very chaotic relationship with somebody that I’ve kind of come to believe has some pretty fairly extreme avoided tendencies. I know. Taylor, what would you consider, like, a few months ago?
Taylor [00:07:03]:
When did man, I thought a few months ago. It’s really been kind of blurred. Like it’s been gradually kind of ending and yeah, I’d say, like, say a few months ago.
Amir [00:07:14]:
Yeah. I mean, there’s so many similarities just thinking about that, where it’s, like, hard to even define the relationship because it’s like so fucking out of the box. You’re in and then you’re out.
Robbie Kramer [00:07:24]:
It’s also hard to define when it started and when it’s going to end because they’re avoiding these.
Taylor [00:07:32]:
You can’t pinpoint when the person is actually showing you tendencies until you start to see the pattern.
Amir [00:07:39]:
Yeah. It really helps watching. So watching what you went through. I remember when we were we had an overlap where you were like, in it and I was in it.
Taylor [00:07:46]:
I know.
Amir [00:07:47]:
And we were both like.
Taylor [00:07:51]:
Okay, no, this is therapy. This is all you share. I share.
Amir [00:07:55]:
Okay. I’ll start briefly with sort of background, context. I don’t think the whole story arc is super helpful for our discussion, but I just want to kind of give a little bit of context or a couple of minutes on this person. I’m going to call her Kelly. You guys can kind of see what I do and you guys can’t do the same.
Taylor [00:08:17]:
Mine is Matthew.
Amir [00:08:18]:
Matthew?
Taylor [00:08:19]:
Yeah.
Amir [00:08:19]:
Matthew it is. Is it Matthew or Matt?
Taylor [00:08:22]:
We’ll decide. Matt.
Amir [00:08:25]:
Would you be upset if you were to call him Matt?
Taylor [00:08:29]:
Let’s just go with Matt. Yeah.
Amir [00:08:34]:
Kathy. Kathy.
Taylor [00:08:36]:
Not Karen.
Amir [00:08:42]:
So I met Kelly through the social scene. Actually, she was part of the parties that I hosted in Austin. She actually chased me. It took me a while to realize that she was fairly aggressively pursuing me. And then one day I actually called Robbie and I was like, hey, this girl’s, like, doing these things. He’s like, Are you fucking stupid? This girl looks like super Indian. Oh, Jesus. Okay. And I mean, together it’s hard to define. I would say we were, like, clearly in some sort of, like, romantic relationship for three, four months. It’s ambiguous. Right. And I would say the relationship was confusing and tumultuous from the beginning because I think one of the things that I really wasn’t used to so, first of all, most of the dating I’ve done is from online. Right. So you meet somebody in this context of like, we’re going on a date, like you’re in the knee, at least on some level, or I’m in you on some level, and we’re going to figure it out. So very little of my dating has been from sort of just like my social circle. And so it took me a while to figure out that that’s what was going on in the first place. And I actually thought that that was sort of like my fault. But as I got to know Kelly a lot better, I would say that a lot of it was because of her avoided tendencies and sort of like the way she expressed interest and affection was so indirect and confusing. Actually, I would say the only time it became really direct was when there was like, competition, when there were like, other girls that were expressing interest. Suddenly Kelly wanted her in mind and wanted to be like subtle and stuff, but otherwise it was like super freaking ambiguous. Right. And so we were non exclusive just.
Robbie Kramer [00:10:40]:
To interject for 1 second. That’s kind of the interesting thing. There’s a pro and a con about meeting someone through your social circle versus online dating that way. Because obviously if you meet them through your social circle, you have some time to evaluate them before you start hooking up and you can see some of those red flags. Whereas with an online dating situation, you’re there, you’re on a date. If things go well, it’s like bam, things have escalated quickly. Right. But the other tough thing is your social circle is a little bit harder sometimes to tell, is this person into me or are they just being friendly because I’m friends with their friends? Right. So it’s a little bit of a gray area so that can both help and hurt. And it sounds like you experience kind of both of those things.
Amir [00:11:23]:
Yeah, totally. And I would say I was a little dense picking up on what were clearly pretty strong signals. And I would say then the competitive environments where it was like me and Taylor and a bunch of her friends, one or two of whom I knew kind of were into me, really made it obvious. And so that was when I talked to you. I would say we were non exclusive, but there was a period in there where I I felt really hard for her and I wanted to date her exclusively. In fact, I sort of preemptively stopped seeing other people where I had something casual and fairly easy with because I just wanted to see Kelly and that ultimately did not end up working out. I would say the nature of the relationship was it just kind of felt like there were kind of two things happening. Like a power struggle. Right. Was one thing. Literally, I would try to get her to sit still on the couch next to me, and then she would continuously be getting up to change the songs. Right. I would take her to a show. She wouldn’t like that show. There was this kind of like there was this power struggle that was happening, and then also there’s like these severe avoided tendencies where we would start to get some level of intimacy that would start to feel good. And then she would I now realize these things just were like shattered intimacy. So we were always caught in these repair cycles, right, where we would have at first good half days together, and then by then we would have like two, three good days together, right? But then there was a week or two weeks of repair from something that was very damaging that she would do to distance me, which I understand better now. And I would enforce my boundaries with these timeouts, right? Because it’s like the only healthy way to express a boundary is just to move myself. So I would do that. It hurt me just as much as it hurt her because I was in love with her. And so we were constantly just trying to recapture the good parts, I would say. It’s like the dynamic of the relationship, and it just ended about a week ago. So that’s my experience with avoidance. Taylor I’m curious to hear how it usually dies. It’s going to be different, right?
Taylor [00:13:31]:
Yeah, this is great. Fantastic.
Robbie Kramer [00:13:34]:
I love how we’re getting.
Taylor [00:13:42]:
Matt, so yeah, I similarly met him kind of the nightlife social circle or the nightlife of Austin. And yeah, from the beginning, he was very persistent. And I had just gotten out of a relationship. I wasn’t looking for anything too serious. I just want to have fun and kind of expand my circle, get to know more people and have fun. And things escalated kind of quickly, and I pushed back for a while, just a couple of months, but he was very persistent.
Amir [00:14:19]:
Wait, was this you and I started throwing parties together in November. Was this before that?
Taylor [00:14:24]:
November, november last year? Yeah.
Amir [00:14:27]:
How long before that?
Taylor [00:14:28]:
I’d say maybe about ten months ago, maybe.
Amir [00:14:32]:
Okay, so it’s probably like, what, summer last year?
Taylor [00:14:36]:
Maybe mid summer last year. And he would call me regularly. He’d text me. He was just very persistent. Now, looking back, I’m like, man, that was definitely some love bombing there. So I got to know a lot of his friends. He brought me around a lot. He was very casual with bringing me around family and just didn’t really like things, staple things that you would think are like, oh, this is important. This means he’s really invested. It turns out it was just kind of he didn’t think through it. He just did it because he wanted me there. It was more of like he was thinking he wanted me there because.
Amir [00:15:23]:
It.
Taylor [00:15:24]:
Was hard for him to be alone. Looking back at it and I didn’t know that. And so I was like, oh, wow, he’s inviting me to this thing. And he’s being so consistent and calling.
Robbie Kramer [00:15:33]:
Me so, like, insignificant for him compared.
Amir [00:15:38]:
To really significant, very strong. I received some of that. Yeah, come with me. My family.
Taylor [00:15:45]:
Let’s do all these things staring at me, and I like you so much. You were sopping and just all these awesome things. And not only that, but because we were around his friends a lot of the time, everyone was validating with how much coming to me, even his friends and my friends coming to me and being like, wow, you all look really good together. This person hasn’t been so open with someone recently for a while. This is really awesome. They did give me a little bit of warning signs here and there, but that’s what happens when you’re starting to know someone new.
Amir [00:16:27]:
I think, like, the friends gave you warning signs or some of his friends, they were like, Watch out.
Taylor [00:16:36]:
They could tell because I was very genuine and just like, I wasn’t out for status or money or whatever. I just wanted to have fun. And I was genuine in getting to know his friends and us all hanging out. So there was a period where, yeah, some of his friends were like, hey, I can tell you’re a very genuine, sweet person, and I don’t want to see you get hurt. And I know this person, I’ve known them for a long time, for years. And just be mindful and they’re great, they’re amazing, but make sure you know what’s happening here. But make your own choices and decisions, and I’ll support you and him in the best way we can. But yeah. Are we going through the whole story?
Amir [00:17:25]:
No, I would just say you met him in the social circle. How long were you all together? Kind of hard to define.
Taylor [00:17:32]:
I would say probably we never made it official. That’s the thing. We never made it official. We said from the beginning it was more we’re not looking for anything serious. And it just kind of we spent so much time together, it became more serious looking for us and for people around us. And after Christmas time, he had reminded me, like, hey, we did this extravagant thing for Christmas together, just us. And I think that’s when it really scared him.
Amir [00:18:03]:
Oh, you’re going through Brian. I’ll get to that.
Taylor [00:18:08]:
If you have to put a number okay, sorry. From early summer, I guess, like eight months. Eight months?
Amir [00:18:18]:
That’s all?
Taylor [00:18:18]:
We really started cutting it.
Amir [00:18:20]:
And so then what was it? In the middle of it, right. What would you say that the dynamics of the relationship were like?
Taylor [00:18:30]:
Oh, man, when we were together, it was like we were committed and we were in a relationship. It felt like we were a couple. And he had no problem showing me around to everybody and bringing me around and was very hands on. Touch was one of his love languages, like affection. PDA talked very highly of me in front of people and when I was around, asked me where I was or asked friends, like where I was to go find him. And then slowly it started to get to where like, okay, he’s not calling me as much, not texting you as much. And then if I wasn’t around or if I he wouldn’t invite me as much to places and if I wasn’t around it was almost like there was always someone there that he could give more attention to and affection to.
Amir [00:19:27]:
So it felt like at one point it felt like you guys were like unofficial boyfriend, girlfriend, super touchy and lovey. And then at a certain point it’s almost like he started pushing it away.
Taylor [00:19:37]:
He started pushing it away and he would buy me these gifts. Yeah, gifting was a big one. And it felt like he would almost give me a gift anytime something he did something wrong.
Amir [00:19:52]:
When you were away from him, do you come back with heavy gifts for you?
Taylor [00:19:56]:
Yeah, that happened.
Amir [00:19:58]:
All right, so I’m starting to take notes on things I’m doing that are similar. It’s really interesting because this is a sort of male avoidance. So I’m kind of like trying to figure out, okay, what are the things that cut across both genders? So it’s awesome. Robbie, why don’t you kind of give us your background here?
Robbie Kramer [00:20:12]:
Well, I have an interesting possible thing I could mix in, so I’m going to talk about Kathy. But also the way I found out about avoidant personality disorder is because I thought I had it and I went googling because I was in a relationship that I think it’d be interesting just for me to start with that. Actually.
Amir [00:20:35]:
That’S how I found out about narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder. I had some act because I didn’t want to do some shit with her that was a narcissist. And then I was like, oh, I’m going to go read about that.
Robbie Kramer [00:20:45]:
Right, exactly. Well, I studied narcissism. I had studied all this stuff and I had never heard of avoidant personality disorder. And I had studied a lot of it, read books on it, followed different YouTube program accounts, whatever. But I was in a relationship that wasn’t really of my doing. Basically a friend who was like a hookup buddy, she came to visit me and I had no idea that she intended to stay and move in with me and that she was really into me. She was basically like, hey, can I come and crash for a few days and then you help me, set me up in Kiev. And then I’ll kind of be on my way and then she just wouldn’t leave. And I was bringing other girls over, having sex with them, going other places. I was in my heyday of bachelor period and she’s living at my house, but I’ve got other airbnb where I’m going. And as time goes on, I called her like the cat. You know that the cat came back? Ever seen that nursery rhyme where it’s like you try to kill the cat, but she keeps coming back? I called her like the cat, no matter how what’s that?
Taylor [00:22:02]:
Like a roach.
Robbie Kramer [00:22:06]:
No matter what I tried to do to get rid of her, no matter how much obnoxious behavior I threw in her face, she just wouldn’t leave. And then eventually I was, you know, like I don’t know, I guess she kind of wore me down in in a way. And I was like, maybe I’m in love. I’m not sure, but I never.
Taylor [00:22:28]:
That actually works. Okay, wearing you down?
Robbie Kramer [00:22:33]:
Yeah. I was like, how is this working? But it was very fascinating to me. And then at one point, I left Ukraine and I visited the US. And I was, like, comparing her to the options around in the US. I’m like, wow, she’s looking a lot better and a lot better. And then I went back to Ukraine and I’m like, maybe she is the one, right? That’s you no Taylor, you’re much better.
Taylor [00:23:03]:
Wow.
Robbie Kramer [00:23:06]:
No, but it was like I was going through this weird sort of mind fuck, and when I stumbled across the avoidant personality, I was like, holy shit, I am doing all of these things. And then I quickly realized then I hired a shrink and I talked to him about all this stuff, and basically he was like, no, you’re not avoidant. You’re just with the wrong person and you’re not excited.
Amir [00:23:28]:
I did with narcissistic Personality disorder and borderline personality disorder. It was both the same thing. It was an act of gaslighting. And the funniest fucking thing was the one with borderline personality disorder. After she did the Borderline Personality Inventory, she was clinically portal. Same story.
Robbie Kramer [00:23:46]:
Yeah. So that was my side of the story. So eventually I was able to get her out of my place because of COVID and I just moved out. It was whatever. Funny story.
Amir [00:24:02]:
You want to be like, yeah, you got to go now. Is this like not one of your no, I did.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:06]:
Trust me, I did. But it’s a long story, but how she would just keep coming back. I mean, I’m definitely a little bit too much of a pushover and a nice guy, but anyway, my house one.
Amir [00:24:21]:
Of the nights, by the way, and I fucking kick her out, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:24:25]:
I changed the locks. I changed the locks, kicked her out. But then COVID happened and she had nowhere to go. What’s that burglar?
Amir [00:24:35]:
The fuck is this chick.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:41]:
Anyhow? But the other situation where I felt like I dated someone that had many of these signs, they manifested actually later in the relationship. We started the relationship. It was like the most storybook on cloud nine falling in love experience. I had ever experienced. We were basically, like we couldn’t leave the bedroom. We were together 24/7 this honeymoon, like, all getting all the feels, all the love. That was happening for almost three weeks straight. And there was a long build up prior to that where we kind of hooked up, but she was dating someone. And then I thought I lost her, and then I was able to rekindle it six months later. And so I was really invested and excited. And then when it came to fruition, when we finally got together and hooked up, it was like, oh, my God, I’ve been waiting for this. It was, like, the most insane amazing experience.
Amir [00:25:41]:
That’s so done.
Taylor [00:25:42]:
How long was it until you all hooked up? Right? Because we said that it was more of, like, for fun.
Robbie Kramer [00:25:47]:
Well, so the first night we met, we actually took some Molly together. We were making out, maybe got to third base, but it stopped there. And she had a boyfriend in Vegas. And I thought, like, the next night, it would just kind of keep going because we were hanging out through our social circle. She was in La. Like, modeling. And the next night, though, when we hung out, she was, like, totally distant. It was really weird.
Amir [00:26:20]:
And cold. Shit. Yeah.
Taylor [00:26:22]:
Do you feel like it was like she was trying to play a game, do the hot and cold thing, or you think maybe I don’t think she.
Robbie Kramer [00:26:31]:
Was doing anything consciously. I thought it was maybe a mix of the Molly, like, wearing off, plus some other weird thing. But it was so weird to be, like, literally 12 hours before 09:00 A.m., we’re still awake, like, looking into each other’s eyes, making out, talking about our childhood trauma on Molly. Right. And then 12 hours later, 11:00 p.m.. The next night, she’s just basically treating me like she doesn’t even know me.
Taylor [00:27:05]:
Yeah, she had a boyfriend at the time. Right. She could have got kind of like, whoa, we did Molly. We had an amazing time. Let me just take some time, push back a little bit, and really be present in what just happened and think about this.
Amir [00:27:20]:
Well, I mean, I think it really characterizes avoidance here. At least I’m curious. It’s not one time. It’s a pattern.
Taylor [00:27:29]:
Right.
Amir [00:27:29]:
It’s over and over and over again. We get close, and you find yourself being pushed away. For me was really actually let’s go into that. Let’s talk about the avoided behaviors, right? So, what the behaviors actually were like. And I’ll describe some of the stuff that happened to me, and maybe we’ll have Robbie and I go, so we get sort of what it was like for a girl, and then we’ll have you go now shifting into the actual behaviors that were avoided. So for me, it was a big list of sort of big and small ones. Right? Let me see. I would say I found myself working twice as hard for half as much love, right? That’s what it felt like being with an avoidance, right? So I would see she was constantly destroying connection in little and big ways, right? So, you know, Gottman seemed to be ideal to bid for connection, right. Robbie, you want to explain briefly what a bid for connection is?
Robbie Kramer [00:28:26]:
Wait, a bid for connection. I’m familiar with Gotman, but not that specific term.
Amir [00:28:31]:
Okay? So bid for connection is if I was to be like, honey, isn’t the sun beautiful over there? Right? That’s me saying, like, hey, let’s come together and appreciate something. And if you were a glancer, that’s really beautiful. That’s connection, right? That’s me requesting shared attention. That’s a bid for connection, right? In non funk relationships, big and kotlin. She was looking at whatever or wouldn’t look up or like, who cares, right? Or just wouldn’t knowledge, right? Those are shutting down bids for connection. There’s bid for connections that are little, right, which are like, look at the sunset, and there’s bid pick bids for connection that are big. They’re like, I had a rough day. I really could use some cuddles. Just like, I’m busy right now. She was constantly destroying sort of bids for bids for connection and any attempts sort of, of connection, which is interesting, Robbie, for me, because it made the times that we did connect like, oh, my God, right? When we did have it was like we did come together. The highs were, like, super duper high. But I think the part of the reason is because they were so fucking rare.
Robbie Kramer [00:29:39]:
Well, they’re fleeting, which makes them way more valuable, and they’re happening less frequently as you’re putting in more effort. So it’s like your investment is ramping up, the payoff is going down, and so it’s like you’re just trying to get this one little nugget that is just increasingly fleeting and that’s like a textbook no.
Amir [00:30:02]:
The intimacy was so challenging, right? She wouldn’t kiss me good unless she was some level or fucked up, right? Even with a few drinks or whatever, like, she would just sort of do these, like, pets, you know? And I’m such a touch person, right? I would say she was like, intimacy just in general is really difficult. She would literally get up and run off and do something all the time, right? I, at one point, had to took the iPad down so she couldn’t get up, run up, over to and change the songs on the stereo, right? The last day I was with her at this crazy moment where she had asked about something from my past and I was explaining, and she kept picking a comb up and pretending as a mustache with a penis. It was a fucking comb down. It was just anything she could do to sort of destroy connection. It felt intentional, and I later realized it’s like it was pathological, right? She’s the only woman I’ve ever been with. Who I had the experience twice of getting her off sexually, and then she just hopped up and went off and did something else. And I’m just like, it’s not like, you have to always get me off, but also that feels really bad.
Taylor [00:31:11]:
Right, before she got you off or after?
Amir [00:31:15]:
No, she didn’t touch me. Yeah.
Robbie Kramer [00:31:18]:
Oh, you got her off, and then she’s just like, See you later.
Amir [00:31:21]:
Yeah. Or like, I want to go do this thing now.
Robbie Kramer [00:31:25]:
And you weren’t finished.
Amir [00:31:28]:
I mean, I didn’t necessarily have any expectations, but I hadn’t I had some level.
Robbie Kramer [00:31:33]:
That’s cold, man. That’s ice cold.
Amir [00:31:37]:
Yeah. And the like but the intimacy was getting further and further apart from so, like, it was like, it was like, we I would spend a week repairing with her to have, like, good sex one time, right? Like and it was just like, fuck with any of the other girls I would see. We would have sex 18 times in this time. Right?
Robbie Kramer [00:31:54]:
Well, that’s exactly what ended up happening with Kathy almost to A-T-I remember shocked one time where it’s like, she had her orgasm, I hadn’t, and she was just like, okay, I think I’m done. And I was like, really? What? That never had that happened to me before, ever.
Amir [00:32:15]:
Well, Mother even acknowledged anything, right? And I was just like, constantly we’ll get to this in a minute, but constantly trying to figure out, how should I behave here? Right? This is so novel of a situation, right? So the other thing I’ve noticed is because she had this need to run away from emotional tension, even good emotional tension. Like, we’re too close, right? She doesn’t need to run away from it. She would have to invent problems, right? So she would have to gaslight and invent problems or freak out or something that was an issue where because she needed a reason to get out of the emotional vulnerable place or the intimacy or whatever, because she wasn’t comfortable with it. So whatever that took, right? It’s like the final night that she ran off, it was just funny. I have this is a thing you probably don’t know, but I’ve developed this mechanism because I’ve been blackmailed once by a girl. So when a girl starts acting crazy, I hit record on my voice numbers on my phone.
Taylor [00:33:13]:
I know a lot of guys in the level that they’re at. I understand that. Having to be careful.
Amir [00:33:20]:
So I did that with her the last night, and I went back and listened to it was just like, fucking nuts, right? It was just like she just kind of kept things and she kept doing this thing where she would say things I said she’s like, if you only would just say this exact phrase, I’d be like, that exact phrase, right? And then she would, like, just go back and repeat herself. Right? It was just like it was completely nutty because what she really needed to do was she to run away. She’d a bad guy to run away from. So she would kind of create the bad guy. Right.
Taylor [00:33:52]:
She’s used to.
Amir [00:33:53]:
Right? So that sort of, like, continuously kind of trying to get close physically, emotionally. It’s obviously more emotional and physical and sort of you would get it after so much work. It would feel like the best, the fucking best.
Taylor [00:34:10]:
Probably even better than getting it more regularly. It was a healthier dynamic because you were aching. That’s what you were longing for. So it probably felt even more incredible.
Robbie Kramer [00:34:23]:
It turns you into a drug addict, effectively.
Taylor [00:34:25]:
Right.
Amir [00:34:26]:
By the way, one of the things my ex wife was actually this way, and Kelly was this way, and they both had drug and alcohol problems. Right. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence. So I kind of want to hear from you guys. I want to talk about how it felt and then how I tried to handle them. But I explained some of the behaviors that I saw. Robbie, what were some of the things you saw?
Robbie Kramer [00:34:51]:
Just to kind of wrap up the turn of events, we had that quasi hookup followed by basically her total denial of interest. And then we were still part of a WhatsApp chat group with some other friends, and the flirting kind of remained in place. And then, like, six months later at Art Basil, she had a different boyfriend and a similar situation happened where we hooked up but didn’t go all the way. And then she broke up with that guy, and I was like, okay, clearly I could feel that she was now really invested. And then basically, she came to New York, and then we kind of moved in together and had this crazy whirlwind romance.
Amir [00:35:38]:
Live together?
Robbie Kramer [00:35:40]:
Well, she effectively came to stay with me with no return ticket. I mean, she had a return ticket, but it was like she was a model. She was just kind of, like, bouncing around from Miami to New York, and she didn’t have any plans. She didn’t have a day job. And very quickly, she only planned to stay for, like, a week. And then the week turned into two. And I’m like, Why don’t you just come with me down to Brazil? Because we’re running an immersion down there. And she’s like, I’ve never been to Brazil.
Amir [00:36:08]:
That sounds awesome. Like, cool.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:09]:
We’re going for a month. And then now we’re basically in a relationship because we’re living together, we’re effectively together. And then it was kind of, like, right around the three week mark. It went from sex all the time to, like, sex once a week, which is pretty aggressively different. And it seemed like she couldn’t take her hands off me to never in the mood and all the common things like, oh, I have a headache, or all those silly objections cliche that women make when they’re not in the mood. I’m like, how could she just immediately lose attraction for me? I was making me crazy, like, trying to figure out what I did wrong that sabotaged the whole thing. And I couldn’t put my finger on any of it because I was like, well, if she didn’t like me anymore, she’d just break up with me. But she seems to like me. She wants to hang out all the time, basically living together, tells everyone how much she loves me, but then she never wants to be affectionate. I got to the point where I was so scared to make in a sexual advance because of the rejection that I just basically stopped trying to hook up with her at all. I was like, I don’t even know how to make a move on my girlfriend. This is ridiculous. Because not only would she not be interested, but she would kind of just reject me in a way that felt so bad I couldn’t bring myself to even try. So the only way I knew that would get her in the mood is if we partied, if we did Molly, if we did coke, and then the drugs would kick in, and then she’d be fun, and then we’d want to hook up or she’d want to hook up. And that was incredibly toxic for the obvious reasons that I was doing that stuff all the time, just so I can hook up with my girlfriend. It’s like, this is broken.
Amir [00:37:54]:
Yeah. So my ex wife was very much like that. It was like the only times that she would have all those normal desires was just like when she was fucked up, right? And with this latest one, it actually was because we weren’t living together, right? So I would set boundaries and push her away for a week or two. So then she would come back and she would want me back. And she’d try to use sex to get me back. But then once she felt like she had me, then it was like avoided behaviors all over again.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:25]:
The one time I broke up with her during coachella, she brought her friend to have a threesome with me the next day to get me back.
Amir [00:38:34]:
Hold on.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:35]:
I just had to walk away. And we had this whole group coachella trip. It was me and a bunch of friends renting a house, bunch of guys, a bunch of girls. And I was like, I’m going to have a miserable time here. And I bought artist wristbands and spent a gazillion dollars on the whole thing. So I was just like, Cassie, I’m out. This is ridiculous. I’m going to have our buddy drive you home. And I’m just done. And then at first she was like, you’re a dick, blah, blah, blah, getting all upset. And I just didn’t really respond. And then her anger turned into like, I know I’ve been terrible and a bitch and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she came over and then she wanted to have sex, of course. And then later that night she brought her friend around and we had a threesome. But then at the end of the threesome, I looked at the other girl the wrong way and she flipped out. And then it was just back to square one.
Amir [00:39:39]:
This sort of cyclical thing, right. Seems to be characteristic of both of our experience. I want to talk about how it felt and how you tried to handle it because I have a lot of stuff there too. I know you coach me through a lot of it, but before I want to hear what were some of the avoidant behaviors that presented with Matt?
Taylor [00:39:57]:
With Matt? With him? I noticed because I went down rabbit holes, like trying to find the answers as well because things weren’t making sense, the push and pull, and we still weren’t officially in a relationship. I noticed that he actually had sorry, I’m like going back. I noticed he actually had a little bit of arrested development. It’s something I found out which is similar to Peter Pan syndrome. It’s like when you are in a fight or flight state at a very young age and you’re not able to process your emotions in a healthy way and handle it in a healthy way. So you react in a way that maybe a twelve year old would, or wherever you are at that age, in that emotional state that you are able to react and you handle it in that way. And then whatever is presenting that fight or flight effect on you, it actually goes away. And so you remember that as a kid, and so you continue to handle it with that in that way.
Amir [00:41:06]:
So it’s like you would regress like a childlike state occasionally.
Taylor [00:41:08]:
Occasionally, yes. And so the question, some of the avoidance tendencies I witnessed yeah, you can.
Amir [00:41:15]:
Take your time, but what were some of the in retrospect, were some of the behaviors that feel avoided?
Taylor [00:41:22]:
It would definitely be like if I knew that we were hanging out and I would pick up gigs sometimes at a place that he hang out a lot at. And if he knew that I would be available for him, he would push back and he would kind of go and mingle and find someone that could give him that chase, that excitement of attention that he didn’t know for sure if he could get. But it gave him that Dopamine effect that, oh, this is a new person he could get. And if they would not give him the time of day or he’d leave, he’d come back to me and pursue me.
Amir [00:42:08]:
So when he felt like you were unavailable for whatever reason, he would run to somebody else. But when he was around you, he treated you like you guys were together. But if he got rejected by that, he would come running back to you.
Taylor [00:42:22]:
It was very hot whenever there wasn’t someone else getting his attention. And this was towards the middle because in the beginning was like love bombing. And he wanted to claim it felt like he wanted me on his team, like full send, like he was love bombing, but towards the middle, it was like if no one else was around, I was his full got his full undivided tension. And then somebody else was. Yeah, he just kind of pursued them.
Amir [00:42:52]:
What happened when you tried to talk to him directly about emotional stuff? Will he stay with you or he kind of like, will he stick with it?
Taylor [00:43:01]:
So it was hard for him to open up emotionally, but his go to was like, I don’t know, I’m just doing X, Y and Z. His go to was like, I don’t know. He wouldn’t get too far into his emotions, but I was able to finally bring some out of him only if I got him alone and in a more intimate setting.
Amir [00:43:25]:
Privately, did sobriety was it something that was consistent when he was over not sober, or did you find that it helped to have drugs around?
Taylor [00:43:35]:
So it was consistent when he was sober and not sober, but I did notice when he would have drugs around or he was using something, he was more vulnerable. And he almost said, like, he loved me. A few times he would bomb me. Even in that time where he was pushing away the hot and cold effect when he was using something or whatever.
Amir [00:44:08]:
Did you have the feeling of when he would get tired of this feeling of like when he would get sort of messed up? You’d be sort of surprised by the depth of feelings that weren’t otherwise being told to you.
Taylor [00:44:19]:
Yeah, actually, there’d be times where I’m sitting on his lap and someone is talking to him and they’re trying to get his attention, and he’s just staring at me, smiling. And ten Mississippi go by, he’s still staring at me. And then he’s not even acknowledging this person. And I look at that person, he’s trying to get his attention, and they just smile at me and see what’s happening. And then he just looks at me and he says, you are so damn beautiful. Like, just stuff like that. But then when he wasn’t drunk or whatever and something was exciting, there was another thrill. He’d go straight after that. It was like he was always chasing a thrill, and he always wanted to be with somebody. It’s hard for him to be alone, and I was able to provide that for a period of time. And then when we got comfortable and he knew I’d be there, then that’s when he started shifting to someone else.
Amir [00:45:11]:
Robbie. Cathy. Was she comfortable? Was she always in a relationship or was she sort of, like, comfortable sometimes, being single, what was your impression?
Robbie Kramer [00:45:21]:
She was basically always in a relationship, like, very quickly jumping from one to the next. Like, before one was done, she would kind of jump to the next. And then I even saw her kind of, like, lining up another guy towards the end of our relationship when she could feel that.
Taylor [00:45:45]:
Yeah. And I should say that he had just gotten out of a serious two year relationship where he was monogamous and was committed. He just knew he never wanted to get married or have kids.
Amir [00:45:59]:
Was he forthright about that, or was this kind of something to pull out of him?
Taylor [00:46:02]:
He was honest about that from the very beginning. Very beginning. He was honest. It’s just towards throughout the duration of the relationship situation. He’s not a thing. It’s a thing.
Robbie Kramer [00:46:17]:
Have you heard the real thing?
Amir [00:46:19]:
All right, whatever. Like, biting not a word.
Taylor [00:46:22]:
Biting is a word.
Amir [00:46:24]:
Moving on.
Robbie Kramer [00:46:26]:
Urban Dictionary situation. Ship it’s in there.
Taylor [00:46:33]:
He was very clear about that from the beginning, and when he was sober, he was clear about it. But then throughout the duration of the relationship, his actions weren’t meeting with his words. And I could tell he was getting emotionally invested, but as soon as I could tell and sense it, he’d start to pull back. And I think it was like fear drifted.
Amir [00:46:55]:
So that’s the core of the avoid behavior. It’s like once they felt that intimacy or that connection, they sort of run away from it. And I think that they operate us for different frequencies, so Kelly, I was never able to get, like, a single full weekend out of her that did not end in I think every single weekend, every single one ended her running away and blowing it up. Right. So she was like, rapid oscillating, whoever the fuck this is. Right. It sounds like Robbie. It sounds like Kathy was a little slower oscillating than that. Right. It seems like you’re able to have good weeks or good months.
Robbie Kramer [00:47:37]:
We had really good and then time period really good, but less time. Really good, but less. And then in the end and then in the end, I was saying she was just basically she didn’t leave, but she would get high. And I don’t smoke weed, but she would get high all the time and just mentally check out. And so I was like, she was there, but she wasn’t there.
Amir [00:48:03]:
Right.
Taylor [00:48:04]:
See, for you all, it seems like it’s hot and cold. Hot and cold from kind of beginning to end. For me, I don’t know if it’s like, specifically for a girl to guy situation where the guy is avoidant or just my situation, but for me, it was, like, very hot and then tilt towards the half, towards the half mark and then started getting more and more cold.
Amir [00:48:26]:
It felt like once there was, like, a level of innocence he achieved. I remember when this happened, he would sort of sabotage it and then he would lose it, and then he would rush it back, and then he would sabotage again. And then that happened. Sort of like it was more sabotaging, less loving.
Taylor [00:48:39]:
It was more of a hot and cold towards the end. Yeah, but it was like, hot, hot. And then it’s like, okay, shit. There’s a level of intimacy achieved here. I’m going to sabotage this and then wait, but no one else is there to catch me. Oh, let me totally let me go ahead and get her back and do something really awesome. And then okay, back and forth.
Amir [00:48:58]:
Does that resonate, Robbie, that feeling of like, once they feel like they’re losing you, they freak out trying to get back?
Robbie Kramer [00:49:03]:
Yeah. Well, they want the comfort and the security of having someone. Right. That’s why these people that we’re describing, they’re always in a relationship, but it’s kind of just for the security of being in a relationship when they’re not actually doing the things that require the relationship to function. They’re not actually present. They’re not bringing up the things that bother them. They’re not expressing, like an adult would, what their needs are and how those needs can get met. They’re just avoiding anytime tension or something happens that they don’t know how to deal with. They either gaslight you and run off, or they just avoid the situation completely and wait for you to figure out and ask them, what’s wrong? Why are you like this? And then it’s like these games.
Amir [00:49:59]:
How old was she when you were dinner?
Robbie Kramer [00:50:02]:
She was 24.
Amir [00:50:05]:
Yeah. So mine was mine is 25, just turned 29. She’s very inventive on both reasons to sabotage and reasons to try to talk to me, right? Like right now, she sabotages Sunday both Monday and Tuesday. She’s found a reason to try to talk to me, right, and she found a reason. The reasons to sabotage are just like the mind boggling on how inventive they can be. Oh, yeah. And then always find a reason to sort of need to talk to you or try to get back in. She did the whole classic, you and I talked about this before. It’s like, first they just text you if nothing happens. See, if you let that slide, right, then the gaslight you. Then you get nudes, right? Eventually you get like, I’m super sorry, will you please eventually towards the end, you get one of those, right? And it’s like every single time, it’s like sabotage or Saturday. Sunday goes through all the stages of gaslighting until, like, Thursday and then Friday, the cycle sort of repeats.
Taylor [00:51:09]:
So would you say for you all when they were hot and cold, was there somebody that they seemed more interested in and invested in, that they were hanging out with on the side? For me, if I wasn’t there when we started getting hot and cold, you’d bring other girls around, and it was clear that these were girls that just kind of popped up out of nowhere and were available. No one really knew who they were.
Amir [00:51:35]:
Well, I did. So I want to talk about the coping mechanism. I want to hear how you guys handle this. Right? So I really wanted to be just with Kelly, right? And it’s the first time I felt that in years. You know how I felt about monogamy. For a while. I’ve been pretty afraid of monogamy. I’d say it’s the first time I felt that in years. And so I shut down other options and I was trying just to be with her. And then I had these really traumatic events. I know you guys both know about them, but, like, stuff where it was like, she’s staying my place, we’re going to this party with friends and she leaves me at the party. I go home alone. Just like shit like that. It’s just like, man, this is brutally traumatic because I’m in love with this person. And what I did to comfort myself is I saw other women that I wasn’t as interested in, nearly as interested in. Right. And the other women could kind of tell that I wasn’t nearly as invested as they were. But it was just like it felt so fucking bad, right? To be pushed away, sort of like and for me, that my experience was it was at some of the places where I was feeling the most connection that I would then be pushed aside. Right? And it just so brutal. And the only coping mechanism that really helped, talking to the inner confidence group, like the guys there just like fucking A plus. Super supportive. I love you guys. But the other one was seeing other women that I wasn’t sort of nearly as attracted to. But it softened the blow. Right. And what’s funny is now is sort of on the other side of it, actually, I come to appreciate some of the other women. I’m just like, actually, she’s not as intoxicating because she’s not as toxic. Right. But actually she’s sort of always been there for me. Right. So that whole running to other women’s thing, I definitely did that. But it’s funny because I’m on the other side of it, right? Yeah. So maybe that’s a guy thing. I don’t know. What do you think, Robbie?
Robbie Kramer [00:53:29]:
Well, my situation was kind of unique. Maybe not. Maybe she was from the get go of the opinion that monogamy is cool, but she doesn’t care for guys monogamous. She’s like, I’m basically monogamous, but you don’t have to be. She’s like, if you want to go and get some ass on the side, I’m cool with that. She is into girls. So I was like, oh, Jackpot, I can do what I want within means. I actually didn’t really want to, though. I was so in love with her, I didn’t really give a shit about other women. But we’d go out and we’d get fucked up. And then, of course, the idea of a threesome or this or that would pop up and that would seem like fun. But then when it push came to shove, she would always kind of sabotage those situations. She would be like, yeah, let’s go out and find a girl. Or she’d name girls that she wanted to hook up with. And she’s like, let’s go after this girl.
Amir [00:54:28]:
It was her.
Robbie Kramer [00:54:29]:
A lot of being generated by her, but then at the 1 YD line something would happen and it wouldn’t really go down. But then I think I made I mean, it was very difficult for me to kind of know what to do because I didn’t want to push on that. But at the same time when she was like green light, I was like, yeah, I want to push on that. So I kept finding myself in these situations where I’m kind of like, I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t, right? And then it got even more confusing because then we went to Burning Man and we were like, camping with this group of people called Trifacta, which was got the name.
Amir [00:55:10]:
Trifacta church group.
Robbie Kramer [00:55:17]:
They literally brought an RV.
Amir [00:55:23]:
That was.
Robbie Kramer [00:55:24]:
Usually parked at Mardi Gras, but they brought the RV and it was basically a moving sex party. Like at Burning Man they had the orgy dome, but this was actually like in Trifucta they had like the RV, sex RV, but no one knew about it except for the people in the camp. But before I knew it and I didn’t choose the camp, my budy chose the camp. I just somehow ended up in this Trifuctic camp. And then all of a sudden we’re in these situations and I didn’t care that much. I just wanted things to be good with her. But things escalated quickly and then jealousy started happening because she saw me hook up. I saw her hook up and that just threw gasoline onto the fire. And things just got progressively worse and more just more weird because now it’s like instead of our fights just being about other things, they were also about these jealousy things. So it got really convoluted. I guess it was hard for me and certainly I’m no angel either, right? But I felt like the difference was I was always pushing for us to be better. I was always the one championing for our relationship and to work things out and to talk it through. I certainly wasn’t an angel. I was definitely up to some crazy sex stuff and pushing that.
Amir [00:56:46]:
But it was Robbie.
Robbie Kramer [00:56:52]:
But she didn’t want to work on it. She was just like, no, I’m just going to get high. That was her sort of deal. And eventually I just felt like the ball was like what’s the expression? I was carrying the ball and she wasn’t doing anything to help improve it and just pointing the finger. And that’s why eventually I really painfully broke it off. And I would have never had the courage to break it off if it wasn’t for the inner confidence group and the other guys who were just like, dude, this is not a good situation. This is a really bad toxic situation. You have no power here. You’re getting turned down for sex. But at the same time, she’s like wanting to have threesomes and stuff. And I was like living in a crazy world. It just felt like I was like Looney Tunes, like, what the fuck is going on here? And finally, when I walked away, it started to make it a little bit more sense. But it was very confusing. And luckily I had the support of the community to be like, dude, walk away from this. It’s just only going to get worse.
Amir [00:57:52]:
Yeah, there’s so many similarities there, I would say, moving into how you handle the behavior. I’m going to talk a little bit about how I handled these things started happening. The first thing I did was searching other people just because I had to spend these prolonged periods. And Taylor, I would talk to you about it. These prolonged periods are just like, hey, she just violated my boundaries so aggressively that I can’t see her, right? And also, I’m confused, right? I’m confused about what her expectations are. She feels the same way I feel at first, I think was like, I would start seeing other people, which helped some. It would help sort of soften the blow, but it wasn’t like that much help, frankly. So I was mum up with this person and I would say some of the things that you said, Robbie, like super resonate. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I could have done. So much time, just like, what could I have done? What could I have done?
Robbie Kramer [00:58:56]:
How did I screw up? You want to take responsibility, because with responsibility comes that ownership. To change something. But it’s like when you’re looking for it and it’s just not there, it’s really torturous.
Amir [00:59:09]:
Well, some of the most interesting stuff and read really helpful. The guys in our confidence group, I would explain to them, actually, this out the other day. I told Robbie, I was like, yeah, we kept trying to have sex. And she kept jumping up to change the song every two minutes. And I told her, I can’t be intimate with somebody who’s doing that. And Robbie, you were like, in the group, you were just like, yo, if a girl did that to me, I would lose my shit out of it, right? And it was helpful because you kind of get like in this bizarre, like, you said, bizarro world, where you kind of don’t know which direction it’s off. You kind of lose yourself in it. And then it’s helpful to talk to you all who are like, yo, bro, that’s weird. You’re right. That’s weird, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:59:51]:
Well, you become accustomed. She does that all the time.
Amir [00:59:54]:
It’s.
Robbie Kramer [00:59:54]:
Just like that becomes a new normal. Oh, yeah. She always just gets up to change it. Music doesn’t matter if it’s sex or this or that. It’s just like, oh, that’s just her being her. It’s like, no, that is fucked up.
Amir [01:00:08]:
I think the smartest thing I did and you guys pushed me into it was like, hey, don’t invest everything in this girl. It’s not safe. See other women even if you’re not as in love with them. Right. And that was super smart. You guys also told me to Lena, my friend Taylor, thank you so much. We called each other three times a week talking to shit. Yeah. So that was some of the ways that I handled it. But I would say I spent during this several month period, spent a lot of time just like in a lot of emotional distress, which felt really unfair because all I really want to do was just love her and give her anything she wanted. Right. It was very challenging because it wasn’t like I’m used to girls testing me and having to prove my strength. This was a whole other thing. Right. This is like long after I’ve proven my strength. At this point, she’s just hurting me at the times when I’m the most vulnerable. Right. And it was just like really brutally challenging. And the only company in my head was the girls and then the office. How did you handle well, once you.
Taylor [01:01:14]:
Realized what was happening and you saw the patterns, it’s almost like you really obviously you care about this person. You want to try to help them. And so once you realize the patterns, it’s like, shit, what can I do to be there for them? You’re not really thinking of yourself that much because you are kind of focused on them.
Amir [01:01:33]:
Well, this is you definitely did that. This is very much Taylor you’re worried about.
Taylor [01:01:41]:
You were very considerate, though, of where she was at. You dissected the situation and were really being understanding to kind of where she was at. You’ve never pushed your boundaries, though. One or a couple of times maybe, but you were very adamant about putting yourself first and doing what’s right for you. But at the same time, you were considerate of dissecting where she’s at and understanding where she’s at. So for me, it sounds like you.
Robbie Kramer [01:02:12]:
Became way more codependent. Taylor, would you say that? Because that’s how I became. And when someone’s being avoidant, it’s just going to make the other person if you lean in, you’re just going to become more codependent and more invested in trying to fix the situation. Is that what you mean? Or is it different also?
Taylor [01:02:33]:
For me, as soon as I started to see the behaviors, the patterns, I was like, okay, this person is okay. I think he’s avoidant. This is because he’s afraid of intimacy and he’s afraid of connecting with someone because he’s afraid of being hurt. So I did actually lean on my friends more and push back a little bit and try to be more cool and giving him space. But I know that I was ready to help him when he needed help, and I was ready to be there for him when he had asked me for help. What’s it called? Yeah, I was just thinking of ways that he could trust me. I could get him to trust me and not be afraid and try to solve that issue. But the problem is that avoiding tendencies, they come from a trauma, like from something they have to work on on their own.
Amir [01:03:25]:
They have this way of consuming your every thought, I noticed with you and with me, which is like I remember specifically telling you, I remember we were in my house when I was telling you this. I was like, all your solutions seem sensitive on what he thinks.
Taylor [01:03:39]:
Right? That’s exactly what happened. And I didn’t even realize I didn’t even recognize the language I was speaking, where my problem solving was coming from until I was speaking to a mirror. And he was like, Taylor, ask yourself what would benefit you in this situation? Don’t think about his needs. Don’t think about what’s going to make him feel better. Think of what would make you happy and what you need. Because every time there was a problem and I was trying to figure out what to do or whatever, I was like, you know, but I think he’s just feeling this way. And I think I don’t want to respond this way because it would probably trigger him in this way, and this is what he needs right now, and blah, blah. I didn’t really consider what I needed that much because I felt like, okay, this is the person who’s showing tendencies of a disorder or whatever. He’s not dissecting me. And I didn’t feel like I was showing tendencies. I wasn’t dissecting me. My focus was on him. I probably was showing tendencies of codependence, but I was focused on him. And I was like, okay, I’m thinking of him because I care about him. But that would just push them away even more, obviously.
Robbie Kramer [01:04:50]:
Well, the interesting thing I remember, because when I was in Austin, we were talking about this. Oh, yeah. And you had explained everything that was going on. And I was like, I feel like there’s only one solution for you. And that’s just basically to give him a lot of distance and a lot of space. However, due to the sort of nature of some of the work and that relationship, you couldn’t do that, which is very clever on his part. And I’m like, wow, that guy set that up like that, I bet, to the point where it’s like, he can have you really close, and it’s because of work, but essentially he can keep you around without keeping you around. And it makes it very difficult for you to cut the cord because I.
Taylor [01:05:45]:
Was I was working, like, in his vicinity a lot. And so, yeah, it was like, even if I did give him space well.
Amir [01:05:55]:
Also, your communities were sober in a wobbly.
Taylor [01:05:56]:
In general, they were. We have almost 200 people in common on Instagram. Literally, that’s probably the most I have with anybody. That’s a lot. And so even if I did try to give him space, it was more of like, in an emotional way, because physically, I wasn’t in a place to give him space at the time because finances, social circles, friend groups, people we had connected with together, we felt like family. The real space would have been cold turkey. Find another job, find another friend group. And I just wasn’t in a place to do that.
Robbie Kramer [01:06:33]:
That’s impossible.
Taylor [01:06:36]:
I can just be emotionally intelligent enough to do it.
Robbie Kramer [01:06:40]:
And to give him that’s too hard.
Amir [01:06:43]:
It’s too hard.
Taylor [01:06:45]:
I’m not going to lie. Ask all our friends. I did a really great job. I carried myself with so much grace in so many situations where I saw him with other people and I was working and I saw things unravel in front of me, and I was just.
Amir [01:07:02]:
Like, that would have fallen.
Robbie Kramer [01:07:06]:
You told me that one story. I was like, wow, I was so impressed the way you handled that. But it’s like, impossible to be physically around someone and not get emotionally. Like, your emotions are way stronger than your logic, and those emotions are going to win. And the fact that you are able to channel those emotions through you and not freak out was very impressive. I think you have an amazing emotional capacity.
Taylor [01:07:37]:
Freak out, but it was never in front of him, other people.
Amir [01:07:41]:
Totally. That was one of the things that.
Taylor [01:07:43]:
Was the most my emotions at home. And I carried myself with so much grace. And yes, I’m not a robot. Like, these emotions, like, what I see, it does trigger me. I know at the end of the day, thinking with emotion in a situation that’s heightened, like, that vibrations are high, you’re not going to get the right response you want. You’re not going to get anywhere. I was thinking very logically and what is the most how can I operate out of love? Let me just focus on love right now. What would be the best for both of us and everyone? And then when I would get home, fuck, the tears would come out. Like, I let it all out and I process as much as I could possibly allow myself to. And then, yeah, I tried so hard to carry myself with grace, and I think I did achieve that.
Amir [01:08:42]:
I think you did great. So one of the things curious about this, because Robbie lived with them, right? So you and I lived apart from our people, and I’ve been pretty so you saw some sometimes saw the raw version, Robbie and the guys in their confidence community. There were days where I was just in the discord, just like, fucking everything I could every wish I had. She never saw any of that. She only saw super measured responses.
Taylor [01:09:11]:
Sometimes what you saw me or sometimes what you would send me from this critic. Like, this is how I handled it. But no, yeah, I only saw yep.
Amir [01:09:20]:
Yeah. I was very I’m very happy with how I presented to her, but the reason I didn’t want to do this, I had a confidence to me, I had great friends like Taylor and Robbie, and I didn’t live with her. Right. Like Robbie. She lived with how is that for you? You can’t sort of time out and go straight. How did you handle that?
Robbie Kramer [01:09:40]:
So at the time, I also had friends that were constantly coming to stay with us. We were on the road, basically. We were together from January through September 15, and we literally went to a festival almost every single week or weekend. We went to both Coachellas. We went to Burning Man. We were in Europe for two months. We were in South America for Brazil. What’s the festival called? Carnival. Carnival. We were literally always with people, always surrounded, always partying, because a couple of days went by without that. I just started feeling really bad, like, what is going on? And luckily I was really busy with the group, and we had a bunch of guys in the group. We were doing all these trips, but I was doing everything to distract myself and surround myself with my support group and friends that would bring out the best in her and the best in me. And it was those weeks where it was just, like, me and her living alone at my place where I was the most depressed. And I found myself constantly on the phone with my close friends, like, what do I do? This is so bad. This is so miserable. Should I break up? Should I not? Oh, my God. I’ve never been this in love with someone. How could I walk away? It was really confusing and painful, and I didn’t get any real work done that year. I probably spent way north of, like, $50,000 on all the festivals and the traveling and stuff. So it was like a huge bank account. Destroyer. Emotional destroyer. All of my time and energy went into getting back to this place that we were at in those first two weeks. And every dollar and time invested was, like, such a tiny return that eventually I found myself going into a rage. When we were in Vegas, and it was the first time I had really lost my temper, and I was, like, yelling and screaming at the top of my lungs. Like, what the throwing shit at the wall? I’m like, this. I had never actually done that before in any situation, aside from when I was pissed on the golf course, which we don’t have to talk about. But I found myself being like, this is really bad. And then, this is insanely unhealthy. And I was like, I’m done. And then we broke up. I lost my shit.
Amir [01:12:09]:
I want to go into that. So we talked about the circumstances of meeting our people. We talked about behavior, the behavior patterns. We talked about sort of how we tried to sort of handle the behavior patterns. I want to hear sort of like, what was the effect on you and your personal relationships? I’ll give you guys mine. I haven’t raised my voice in an argument with a woman in three years, probably. And this Sunday, I found myself yelling, right? And that was for me, that was the end. I was like, oh. I told her I was like, I don’t do this right. I found myself yelling. And even the way it ended was explosive. And I haven’t experienced anything like that for, like, a long, long time because I haven’t put myself in those sort of toxic situations before. So I found it bringing up some of my worst tendencies, I would say. I remember the sales, the airport. I was in the airport, and I talked to both the all fucker. I talked to you, and I talked to you. And it was just like I just felt like and I have a son too. And I feel like it had this the impact it had on me was like it brought some of my worst tendencies. And I would say it took all the air out of the room in my other relationships, too, because I just found myself constantly worked up and recovering or elated. You’d see that? Like, oh, my God, things are amazing. Oh, my God, I’m going to die. And it took time. It took a lot of energy away from my son to the point where when I told my son that I wasn’t going to see Kelly anymore, he said, Good. I don’t like her. Right? Yeah. Other thing I will say and this goes back to the whole physical thing, dude. I started having massive sexual anxiety with her because you would get close, you start having really great sex, and then she would break it, and then you have to repair. And it’s like, your body doesn’t lie, right? About how safe you actually feel, right? And so I would find myself like, yo, I don’t think I can have sex right now, right? It was like this weird sort of like it was, like, almost like, creating dysfunction inside me physically and mentally.
Robbie Kramer [01:14:35]:
I had the exact same experience. I went from my greatest hero of a sexual tiger when we first started together to the point where I was, like, completely useless at the end because it was like, oh, my God, is she going to change her mind? Is this going to happen? Is this going to be okay? And my body was just like, no, sorry, not working with you here. So it was horrible. Yeah.
Amir [01:15:02]:
How did it affect your emotional state outside the relationship? How did it affect your relationship to other people?
Robbie Kramer [01:15:08]:
Well, kind of similar to what you were mentioning. I was definitely leaning on my friends a lot more than I usually was, and they were all great and very happy to help, and your best friends always show up for you in that regard, but I was just neglecting basically anything else that I was interested in. I was neglecting all my hobbies. I was neglecting my career. I was neglecting most of my friendships. I was just caught up in this tunnel vision whirlwind of, how do I get back to this loving, amazing utopia that we created in those first three weeks? Which was just a drug fueled high, really, when I look back on it. And just that. It wasn’t just that. Obviously, that’s how these people kind of operate. It’s like you’re in this amazing connected experience, and they can’t stay there. Right? They can’t function there. They are avoidant, and they avoid that love for them. That love feels too scary, too intimate, and they have to take it away because that’s what feels comfortable to them. And I’m trying to get it back the whole time and just failing miserably, and eventually you just got to be like, all right, I quit. I’m walking away from this. This is a losing proposition.
Amir [01:16:22]:
Totally. I’m sure it’s what you’re yeah.
Taylor [01:16:25]:
So I focus on spending time with him a lot. Like, I prioritize that. I noticed, like, I I would want to spend time with friends, but if there was an opportunity for me to spend time with him, I prioritize that because I wanted to see if there was something I could do to maybe fix it and get to another level or whatever. I noticed that outside of us, our friends, since we had some of my friends in common, they weren’t sure where we were at. Are they still a thing, or are they not? They didn’t know the story. They didn’t know what happened, but they knew how he operates with a relationship or with a person, and they kind of had a sense that, okay, he’s just not mature and ready for this.
Amir [01:17:12]:
I really struggled with embarrassment because people would see us together. They would hear it. They would assume things, or even my friends. I would call, and I would tell them how excited I am and how love I am. I fucking called you and told you that, and then, like, two days later, I’m calling you, and I’m falling, right?
Taylor [01:17:33]:
So dealing with embarrassment, like, I only had a couple of friends that I felt like I could really communicate this.
Amir [01:17:38]:
To because right here, baby.
Taylor [01:17:42]:
Right here. Because after a while, I feel like this is like a repeat. I feel like people are getting sick of hearing about this. We all know what’s going on, and I’m still attached and still trying to process it. So Amir was always there to be like, I get it. Just let’s fucking go. Let’s tee time it out. And then, yeah, there was embarrassment with my friends, our social circle. We had friends in common, and we’d all be out somewhere and there’d be a party or something happening that Matt was planning or that night or whatever, and he had invited everyone else except for me because he was trying to get space. But it was hard because we all have the same friends in common, a lot in common. So I didn’t hear about this party or I didn’t hear about this event, even though he said, yeah, he’s not going to exclude me and everyone. We’re all friends here, and we all want to still keep the vibes together and do things together naturally, of course, getting space, there were things that I could not be a part of. So I would say either like, no, I didn’t actually hear about it, or then I just started to say, like, oh, yeah, no, I have plans. I’m not going to be able to make it.
Amir [01:18:57]:
Did you sort of struggle with the sort of embarrassment of the situation?
Robbie Kramer [01:19:02]:
Yeah, I was always just feeling ridiculous because things would go from hot and cold so quickly, and sometimes we’d go and hang out with new friends, and I was always very worried that we would get in a fight and then I would lose my temper or something would happen. And it was just like I don’t know. I felt like I was constantly walking on eggshells to not make mistakes, and then at the same time worried about what other people were thinking. And it was such a whirlwind of emotions. There was definitely a lot of embarrassment kind of built, baked in, and a lot of embarrassment about how I kind of handled these different situations. I remember one time at Burning Man, I got super pissed off when she was acting annoying and I threw my bike into a bunch of other bikes and people were like, who’s that psychopath just doing things?
Amir [01:20:03]:
Turn the juice down, budy.
Robbie Kramer [01:20:05]:
Seriously. I just kept getting so mad about things because I just like, I don’t know what to do. And then I do embarrassing things when I was angry and then regret it.
Amir [01:20:16]:
Yeah, I mean, the group, actually, I pour so much embarrassing emotions in the group. You all were like, very kind. I had some pretty solid rants in there.
Taylor [01:20:29]:
So, for the record, I handled myself better than you all did.
Amir [01:20:34]:
Everybody handled themselves better than Robbie did.
Robbie Kramer [01:20:36]:
It sounds like, yes, I lose that.
Taylor [01:20:39]:
One more like, yeah, just out in public kind of things, but still a lot.
Amir [01:20:45]:
I think that what I would say is there’s this turn inward confusion, shame, embarrassment, and this cyclicality to it that became really addictive. So one thing that I really noticed with Kelly was I’m curious here. I suspect it’s not from you, but I’m curious here from Robbie, there were some really specific triggers that would cause her avoidant tendencies to super duper duper come out, right? So one of the things that I was honest with her about when she finally asked was like, hey, in those times when she like, I ditched you or whatever, did you see any other women? And I was like, yeah, I did. Right? And then after that, it became this massive set of triggers for her, anything. And she kept asking me, she would pick our friends and be like, you sleep with her? Sleep with her. Right? And then when she eventually did blow things up on Sunday for the last time, of course this was the trigger. Right? It just became, I think, the most convenient excuse. Although she carries specific trauma around this because of some of her childhood dynamics. But I’m curious. For me, there was very much that was a trigger, which is ironic because the reason I saw the people was because of her avoided behaviors, right? Because I didn’t want to see other people. And the funniest thing about it is, the last time I got brought up, I was letting her know that I was going to break things off for the people so I could see just her, which is like a positive thing, but it still triggered her. And then she had to blow everything up, right? And I was like, oh, I’m really glad I didn’t anything else with anybody else now. So I’m curious, Robbie, did you notice that there were triggers that caused anybody behavior to come out, or was it random?
Robbie Kramer [01:22:38]:
Why this really crazy situation with her? I’m really curious what you guys would make of this. It was a very unique situation in the fact that our mutual friends would have this very aggressive and wild sex that we could hear from the other room. And Kathy was under the impression that it was an abusive situation. It was aggressive sex, like extremely aggressive, where she was under the impression that he was beating her up. And I’m like, well, I know this guy. I’ve known him for a long time. I don’t think he would do that. And we knew she really liked aggressive, crazy sex. And we also knew that she was very much capable of maybe we didn’t know what to believe. Basically, we didn’t know if there was, like, an abusive situation happening or it was just crazy sex. And we couldn’t get the straight story from her friend. But essentially, Kathy made up that she was like, no, it’s definitely abuse, and you need to do something about it, Robbie. You need to stand up. And I’m like, first of all, that’s not my job. Second of all, maybe it’s not abusive. Third of all, what the fuck do you want me to do? Not your friend well, it’s my friend who is doing the alleged abuse, right? Then she was like all the time. It was like in the beginning when we were all hanging out together and living in the same place. And then when it was kind of happening there, she was like, okay, she decided that that’s what was happening. And I decided I don’t think that was happening. And there were other people around too. And they were like, we don’t know. Maybe I know that they’re into that crazy stuff. Maybe things get kinky and it sounds bad. We’re hearing these things from the other room that sound they could sound like abuse, but they could also just sound like wild and crazy sex and we can’t get the story right. Of course, I then asked them later, like when her and I broke up and I was like, what was going on there? And they’re like, no, we were just having like wild and crazy sex. But she made up this big thing that I was a pussy because I wasn’t confronting him and saving her from an abusive relationship. Not her Kathy, but her friend. And it really fucked up our relationship because that guy was like one of my best friends. We were hanging out all the time. She was very close friends with his girl. And so it kind of became this weird situation where it’s like she didn’t really want to hang out with them, but she still did. And when she would party, she would want to hang out with them. So I was just kind of caught in this weird situation where she was like, you need to stand up and say something. And I’m like, that’s not my business. And it was very confusing for me. And she just manipulated me all the time with this nonsense. And anytime she would get upset, she would emasculate me and tell me about this situation even randomly, out of nowhere. And it was just so weird. So I don’t know if that’s relevant to the question.
Amir [01:25:51]:
Well, what I know about the whole the last thing you made is like, when she get upset, she would find a way to bring it back. It was funny because she actually a couple of times slipped the word cheating out there. I was like, whoa, hold the fucking phone. That’s not going to fly. Right? It was like when she would get upset, she would pull in stuff, right? And it was typically stuff that was like around her sort of trigger topics. And then she would use that to rationalize the sort of runaway, like old.
Taylor [01:26:22]:
Stuff, though that wasn’t kind of really irrelevant, that much old stuff, no, but.
Amir [01:26:27]:
Not old made up stuff. We were never in exclusive relationship ergo. I could never cheat, right? And she has a past with cheating. It’s very traumatic. She would sort of pull stuff like that in and she kept pulling friends of ours. I know. It was this part. It was like there was trouble trigger topics, and she’d get upset, and she would pull the trigger topics in, and then she would sort of flame herself about the trigger topics and then use that as the excuse she needed to run away because really she was just uncomfortable with the amount of actual love that was in the room at the time. Right?
Robbie Kramer [01:27:00]:
For sure, yeah. It was very much the same thing she’d always default back to, oh, things are good. Wait a second. No, they’re not. I’m going to bring this subject up that is totally irrelevant and make that a problem. It was just like she was just constantly throwing smokescreens and bombs, like, anytime things are good, just like, no, bam, bam, bam, things are bad again, and I feel good.
Amir [01:27:24]:
Yeah. And the thing about that particular thing for me is I was always in a state of hyper arousal in negative sense. Right. I was always in a sort of state of anxiety because I just felt like I had to be hyper vigilant about whatever might come at me. Right. And I just didn’t know when it would come. And then I would get two days in, start to relax, and then it hits. Right. And it was just like it created, like, a very strong stress reaction over time.
Robbie Kramer [01:27:54]:
Sounds pretty toxic.
Amir [01:27:56]:
Real fun. I kind of don’t doubt that a lot of that applies to your situation. I’m curious.
Taylor [01:28:08]:
Bringing up old things.
Amir [01:28:10]:
He didn’t seem like he attacked you. Right? So I was always under attack.
Taylor [01:28:14]:
That’s the thing. I was never under attack. And he always tried to make things just very light and airy and fun, because that was at the end of the day, I think his prerogative with seeing me was just keeping things light and yeah, when things got more serious, that’s when he pushed away. But I never felt under attack for anything. I will say the only friction that there was was a topic came up with me possibly being with maybe someone I saw in my past or somebody that maybe I was seeing at the time. He was like, I don’t want to hear anything about it. I don’t want to hear it. No, we’re good, we’re fine. Yeah, and intimately, too. When we were having sex or whatever, it was like, you mean, like, I’m the first guy that you just dealt with?
Amir [01:28:59]:
I’m like, totally, totally the first ever seen baby?
Taylor [01:29:08]:
There definitely were things that I was like, wow, definitely something I haven’t experienced before. But yeah, anytime there was an opportunity to communicate and be vulnerable about something that I hadn’t experienced in my past and just talk to him about where it was a similar situation, it was like, let’s just not even talk about it. You’re a virgin. I’m the only thing. You’re only seeing me. Yeah. He always kept that very vague, whether or not he was seeing other. People always. And we were never officially boyfriend or girlfriend.
Amir [01:29:43]:
Good. Because he didn’t deserve it.
Taylor [01:29:44]:
He didn’t fucking deserve it.
Amir [01:29:47]:
So I’ve been taking notes as we go, and I want to recap some of the similarities, and I want to hear if you guys agree with them. One thing I noticed that all this said was that at some point along the way, our friends were trying to tell us or warn us or let us know that there were some level of red flags on my side. You guys both were doing that, right? I know you all fucking know you were doing it with me. You said it. I’m curious, Robbie. Were people trying to kind of tell you, hey, something’s up here, buddy?
Robbie Kramer [01:30:15]:
Oh, yeah. Constantly. But the problem was, it was either that or you have the coolest girlfriend I have ever in my life met or seen. So it was very confusing because she was insanely charming and fun and cool and all the things. She made the best first impression on people.
Amir [01:30:36]:
Well, yeah, so it was funny, dude. She was so divisive that this actually affected some of my friendships. They’re like, I don’t want to be around her. Right. And then other people would be like, she’s so dope. Okay. The other thing feel like there was this sort of constant trying to recapture what you once had. It seems like we all sort of said some version of that. Do you feel like that be true?
Taylor [01:31:02]:
Yeah. I wanted to try to salvage what we had created from the beginning before I started to see it kind of go downhill. I wanted to make sure that I was leading this chapter completely. I wanted to make sure I dissected everything that I could and that I am leaving this chapter with no regrets. And I wanted to see what I could solve and what I couldn’t. And that’s where it was hard to talk to friends, except for you, because you were there for me. But that’s where it was hard to really go back and bring up old issues because I knew there were things that I was doing that wasn’t the healthiest and that was toxic behavior. But I was like, I just really want to see this thing through. I don’t want to close this chapter and be like, what if I did this? What if I did this better? I don’t know if that was partly because yeah, I was in a codependent tendency state. I think it was both. And partly because I just really wanted to try everything that I could to see this thing through.
Amir [01:32:19]:
So we all had the friends telling us, hey, watch out. Definitely all had the sort of always kind of chasing the high that we had before. And remember, I think we all agree the highs were very high. At least they weren’t for me. Robbie yeah, the other thing is, we’ve all mentioned this questioning myself what could I have done better? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? This sort of continuous sort of like beating yourself up and sort of turning in on yourself. I don’t know if I sounds like you did. Yes.
Robbie Kramer [01:32:56]:
Oh, yeah. Constantly.
Taylor [01:32:57]:
You yeah, for sure.
Amir [01:32:58]:
So the other thing is this sort of asymmetric effort. Right. I know. Robbie, you mentioned that you just felt like you were the only one that was finding sort of like, this pro relation. I observed this in you, like, how hard you were working to try to try to make excuses for him, sort of try to find a path forward. Right. And you guys know how hard I.
Taylor [01:33:21]:
Was working as much as I possibly could. Am I acting crazy? I kept making sure trying to check myself, to look after him, but really? Yeah. There were things that I needed to look after in myself that I was just putting aside.
Amir [01:33:39]:
So I think, for me, the hardest thing about this whole thing and I think you’ll both agree with this, was when I was at the most, like, feeling the most secure in love is when I got hit out of nowhere. I remember specifically when you came back from a trip one time. You came back from this trip, and then something happened, and it was like you came back on the trip smiling, so happy. Right. And then something happened, and you were just like it was you’re so low. I remember what it was. He told you, like, he’s never going to yeah. Do you agree with that? Sort of like coming to a place of love and security and then just, like, kind of being cut off?
Taylor [01:34:18]:
Yeah. Like, that’s a big thing with the avoidant tendency, the personality type, I feel like. Yeah. It’s usually this extravagant big thing where you feel so connected and so good with this person, and I think that’s what triggers them to out of nowhere be like, okay, fucking let’s just go back 100ft. Let’s take thousand steps back to where we started.
Amir [01:34:41]:
Whatever that avoided behavior looks like that’s when it shows. I think, for him, it was different. For me. For mine, it was different to, like, person. Do you sort of agree with that, Robbie? You were like a place of security, and then you just feel like you just got your life kicked out from.
Robbie Kramer [01:34:52]:
Underneath you every single time, and each time was worse, and each story is more ridiculous.
Amir [01:34:57]:
Each time was worse. Totally fucking right, dude. Because it escalates and it’s funny because I would corner her and put up specific behaviors, and the only way to get me back would be for her to acknowledge it, but then she would just do a worse thing next time. What do you do? The thing I’ve got maybe in order of, I think, how bad it is that being at the height of vulnerability and security and then just having your legs shut off underneath you. And now all of a sudden, you’re just miserable. Right? That sort of constantly trying to recapture that love that you had because the highs were so high. Then that sort of turning inwards where you’re questioning yourself, like, what did I do? And then that asymmetric effort where you’re working too hard, when really it’s a two man job. Right. I think those are all a big piece of it. And of course, we were all getting warnings along the way because we have people that love us, but none of us fucking pay attention because we’re human beings. If human beings paid attention, we’d be a lot better than species. One other thing I noticed is this. Robbie, you’re the one that didn’t speak about this on my mind. Kelly, she would, in these periods of avoidance, come back with gifts on the other side. I happen to know Matt was a gifter. It was almost like they sort of recognized they were doing and on some level they were trying to fix it, but in a not emotionally vulnerable it.
Taylor [01:36:24]:
Was also kind of subconscious. Like, there wasn’t a particular thing that I think he did wrong. But I started to pick up the pattern, like, okay, I find out about something that was kind of questionable after he gave me a gift. And so then whenever he started moving forward, when he would give me gifts and they’d be extravagant, awesome things that.
Amir [01:36:42]:
People would be like, I can attest to that. They were extravagant.
Taylor [01:36:48]:
He had no problem with people in the room showing the gift to me and people being, like, presenting the gift to me in front of people. He had no problem doing that I could see later. Oh, wait, it’s because what X, Y, and Z happened, and maybe he’s just well, the gift was balanced out.
Amir [01:37:05]:
What?
Taylor [01:37:06]:
Ali fucking well, I think the gift.
Amir [01:37:07]:
Wasn’T really about you as much as about them. Does that sound right?
Taylor [01:37:11]:
Like, to make themselves feel better?
Amir [01:37:12]:
Yes.
Taylor [01:37:13]:
They said, I got this because I knew you’d love it or whatever. And I’m like, this means that I would love but yeah, it seemed like it was more about them to make themselves feel better for something that they did.
Amir [01:37:25]:
Robbie, what’s your reaction to that? Is that something you experienced? Maybe not gifts in particular, but like this sort of, like, way of trying to make up for what they sort of, on some level knew they’d done.
Robbie Kramer [01:37:33]:
Oh, yeah, she knew what gifts I wanted. And those were sexual gifts. And boy, did she deliver. And boy, did she take them away. At the end of Burning Man, she was like, I want a girlfriend. We should be in a thruffle. And she found this stupidly hot blonde girl from Australia, and we brought her back from Burning Man. And she knew that was going to get my validation highs checked off. And I was leaving that situation feeling like the coolest motherfucker ever, right? I’ve got these two hot girlfriends look at me and blah, blah, blah. And then as soon as we get back to La. Sabotage, like, done. Why would you do that? It’s all your fault. You’re the one who found her. What are you talking about? So it was just that the threesome I mentioned before, she would always try to make up for it with the sexual gift she knew I really wanted, and then she’d take it away.
Taylor [01:38:34]:
It’s interesting. We both got, like, gifts was a big part of it, but not only not just because it was like, maybe part of their love language, but it seems like they all had something that they wanted to do to compensate for their actions. Actions that maybe we weren’t fully aware of, but they were doing. And for me, one of it was like dates or inviting me to personal things that anyone on the outside could see, like going on a boat with their family or having Easter with their family or going to church. One on one things that was like, this is special. They’re going to appreciate this. And that I can easily misconstrue as like, oh, wow, this means maybe things are getting better. But outside of that, it was like, when I wasn’t there, let’s fucking go. Let’s invite every person. Let’s pretend like, this person’s, my girlfriend, this person. That was kind of the gift giving and date special situation.
Amir [01:39:36]:
Well, now I just sort of wish that the gifts I got were more along the line. Robbie’s gifts were I ended up in a rubble for like a brief three month period, was actually exactly the same. It was ex wife now and sort of like sort of same thing. She was like she knew what she had done. She was trying to figure out recapture. It was like her idea. And then jealousy. And then it was like, yo, this is weird, right? And then it was all of a sudden, why did you do this? We have to do anything. Okay, this is great. So it sounds like we’ve got a few things when we were very secure. It’s when they chop the legs out, constantly trying to recapture that high, questioning yourself, working hard while they’re not our friends, telling us along the way, like, hey, something’s up here. These things kind of all kind of feel in common. That led to feelings of just confusion, feelings of embarrassment. I suffered from shame a lot during this time period. All sorts of coping mechanisms present. I had some healthy ones, which is like, leading into the inner confidence group. Taylor, as a friend, right? I had some unhealthy ones. It sounds like you guys kind of all kind of shared that thing. I’m curious. Looking back, like, first of each show, looking back knowing now, right, what would you have done differently? Let’s start with you.
Taylor [01:41:10]:
What would I have done differently from the beginning?
Amir [01:41:12]:
Yeah. If you know what you know now about avoidance, if you knew, if you understood sort of the I knew he.
Taylor [01:41:16]:
Was avoidant and I could maybe pinpoint.
Amir [01:41:18]:
Well, maybe not pinpoint from being that maybe you started getting the red flag along the way. So as the red flag starts showing up, what do you wish you had done differently?
Taylor [01:41:26]:
I wish that I would have prioritized more of my friends and meeting up with them and giving more space to where I wouldn’t jump up when he would invite me somewhere and just prioritizing more quality time with myself, honestly.
Amir [01:41:50]:
Maintain your independent identity.
Taylor [01:41:51]:
Maintaining more of my independent identity so that I could let things unravel rather than kind of trying to spend more time with him so I can navigate it and try to control or fix whatever’s happening, rather. I think the best thing I could have done was taking a step back and just kind of like seeing what he does, paying more attention to their actions and letting that speak more loudly than their words, and that would have saved me a lot of shit.
Amir [01:42:17]:
No, the actions over words thing is so huge. That’s actually something Robbie taught me.
Taylor [01:42:20]:
It’s like doing less literally, it was more it would have been so much more like I shouldn’t have to work that hard and kind of, like, monitor the situation to see how to try to see how much someone has invested in me.
Amir [01:42:35]:
Well, it’s one of the things Robbie teaches to the guys in the group I think is really good. I think it’d be helpful. It’s sort of like matching your investment. Right. It’s just like what they’re investing, you sort of invest, and if they pull back, you pull back. You’re sort of like keeping that there because it keeps you fucking safe.
Taylor [01:42:48]:
It does.
Amir [01:42:49]:
Robbie, what do you wish you would yeah.
Robbie Kramer [01:42:51]:
If you don’t do that, you just end up in a world of pain. Here’s the funny thing. I’m sitting here thinking, what would I have done differently? And I’m really struggling to come up with anything because I had so much help along the way from the group, and I did a write up about how we got together during, you know, the write up that you did. I had that the entire way, the thread going, every step along the way. And even though people said, this is bad news, don’t do it, I was like, I fucking have to. You kidding me. I feel this strongly about this person. I have to go all in. I have to have her move in and have her come with me to Brazil and then Europe. I don’t think it would have been and I was doing all those things knowing I was jumping in too fast, but I had to do them, and there was no way I would have been capable of not doing them, even in retrospect. So it’s really hard for me to sit here and say what I’ve done differently, because I felt like I had so much support along the way, and I was already at a very high level with understanding this stuff. Fuck. I really don’t know if I would have done anything a whole lot different.
Taylor [01:44:09]:
I do feel like with the information I had and what I knew, where I was at, I operated the best that I could, and there was literally no other way that I could have reacted. Going against my instincts and intuition. I think I operated the best that I could and handled it the best I could. But if we were to say what I know now how I would handle that better yeah.
Amir [01:44:30]:
I think I actually appreciate both of you guys because I have other friends who are just like, you need to get away from this girl. I have friends who didn’t want to hang out if she’s around, and both of you guys sort of had the perspective of, like, look, there’s a lot of red flags. Like, the heart wants what it wants, and it seems like you need to have this experience. And neither one of you I mean, you both told me your opinion, but neither one of you spent a lot of energy trying to convince me to do something that was against what all of my deep emotions told me I need to do. I really appreciate that about both of you guys, so thank you. In terms of what I would do different, me, I would actually have gotten more aggressive with my boundary student because.
Robbie Kramer [01:45:07]:
Really, you got pretty aggressive pretty quick.
Amir [01:45:10]:
No, you think that, but there were some periods where there was there was, like, three, four weekends in a row where it was like, she was over, like, 04:00 A.m., and then we’re, like, run away.
Robbie Kramer [01:45:21]:
But I feel like it was such a tough situation because it’s like things weren’t totally clear about where the attraction was. I felt like it was true.
Amir [01:45:38]:
It’s a lot harder in the moment when you’re uncertain. But I got to be honest with you now, at this point, I’m starting to be like, well, I don’t care. If it turns out that she wasn’t attracted to me, then, oh, well, I didn’t lose very much. Right? You know what I mean? So I’m kind of getting to the point now where it’s like, well, I’m really attracted to her, so let’s just assume she is too. What do I really fucking lose, right? I actually think that I would have been more clear. I started making real progress. I feel like in terms of her seeing how I would be allowed myself to be treated, once I started saying things like, if you flake on me, you will not see me again for a while. And during that time period, I’m going to do whatever I want. I’m not going to tell you what I did. Right. Once I started being really clear and direct, it forced an outcome. Right. And I wish I had done that sooner.
Robbie Kramer [01:46:33]:
But you had established so much attraction already where you could say that, because it’s like there’s so few people that ever get to the point where they could say that with a straight face, really believe it. So yeah, it’s tough. I guess one thing that I thought of that maybe I would have actually changed is a lot of my behavior during that relationship was out of sexual validation that I felt like I needed or wanted. And I saw how a lot of that probably rubbed the wrong way on her or pushed her past her boundaries a little bit. And I think if I was a bit more mature and not so thirsty for some of those sexual experiences, things would have been a lot smoother. But I still think the outcome probably would have been the same. It just would have been less.
Amir [01:47:21]:
So let me ask you this. I kind of want to both you do you regret having your experience?
Taylor [01:47:26]:
No. I wanted to add to how would react differently. I would say actually reacting to the red flags instead of kind of like taking it and putting it on the shelf and holding onto it and recognizing it, but actually reacting to them as far as like, okay, maybe I’m not going to see him this often every week. Because that is a red flag and I should consider it because that’s putting myself first and being more cognizant of me, like honorable of me.
Amir [01:48:04]:
Just go slower. You’d gone slower. So it’s interesting. Rob and I talked about in our last podcast, when a boundary violation occurs or Red Flag presents, you just pull back on the throttle a little.
Taylor [01:48:13]:
And if he questioned it and was like, thinking I was acting weird, I’d communicate it like, well, there’s these things that I’ve noticed, and I just want to take it slow and let us go slower and get to know you a little bit slower. But yeah, respecting my boundaries more and stuff. And so you were saying what was.
Amir [01:48:31]:
Your well, I asked the question, like, who would you regret having the experience?
Taylor [01:48:35]:
Fuck no. I learned so much, and I feel like honestly, looking back at the way I handled it, I’m so proud of myself because there were things that were so hard to deal with, and I would not have learned as much as I did if I didn’t go through those tough times. And I really got to see a lot of what I was made of.
Amir [01:48:59]:
Totally agree. I tell you what, that perspective. And I still care for her and wish her the best. But I’m grateful that I went. I learned my own strength as a result of this experience.
Robbie Kramer [01:49:10]:
Yeah, I guess the one other thing I would add is had I had under the constraints I had, I probably would have done a lot different. But knowing now, I would have set the constraints up differently. So we weren’t escalating things so quickly. Maybe not moving in together immediately. Right. But it was just the nature of both of our jobs and whatnot. And I’m still friends with her. Oh, yeah, we’re cool. We’re totally chill.
Amir [01:49:38]:
I’ll let her find it.
Robbie Kramer [01:49:45]:
She definitely matured a lot. I think she’s great. A lot of these things were everyone’s dealing with their own shit, and under certain situations, certain light, it’s like, it’s so hard to point the finger. These behaviors were definitely a thing. But I don’t sit here thinking like, she’s bad or she’s wrong or she’s this or she’s that.
Amir [01:50:13]:
Useful thing to think. Right. I also don’t think those things either. Right. Actually, it’s even hard to say this, and I’m still in the hurt phase, right? But I still love her. I still want good for her. There’s a part of me that holds up. This still holds out for things working out, but there’s a much smarter part of myself that’s here talking with you guys, and it’s like, they’re not going to, right? They’re not going to. It’s not a situation where it’s like, oh my God, she’s bad and I’m great, or anything like that. We all got problems.
Robbie Kramer [01:50:45]:
And none of us are victims. And it’s like, of course you’re going to end up at the end of the day, you just have love for the person. That’s kind of where I will say.
Amir [01:50:55]:
That one of the things that Robbie’s stuff. So Robbie does teach. Hey, look at the beginning. Seven to ten days between visits, right? Like, stuff like that. And he taught me, and he really pushed me to have I pushed you on this. To have other options. Even if you aren’t sleeping with them. Right? Because when some of these red flags start to present, those things become really important.
Taylor [01:51:13]:
Other options, even if you’re not that interested, and even if it’s like you are more fixated on this person, like.
Amir [01:51:18]:
Clearly you’re going to be you’re going.
Taylor [01:51:20]:
To be fixated on the person having those options there. They do help you subconsciously.
Amir [01:51:24]:
I have value. Even though this one person doesn’t see that value right now. I have value.
Taylor [01:51:28]:
You’re not waiting for them to do something that makes you feel good. Like waiting to do something that pushes the relationship forward. You have other options.
Amir [01:51:37]:
So final word to you. You’re talking to sort of like a guy. He just started seeing somebody who you suspect is avoidance. Maybe some red flags are presenting. What’s the final word? What’s your advice? You’re going to do it, guys.
Robbie Kramer [01:51:55]:
You’re going to do it? Wait, I didn’t hear that last part. What did you say?
Amir [01:51:59]:
She said guy and girl. I said not just guys. Who cares?
Robbie Kramer [01:52:07]:
This is girls too. The heart wants what the heart wants. Right? And I’ve gotten so much advice from people over the years, don’t do it. I told you so. I knew this would happen. And I’m just like, cool story, man. People need to have their own experiences. They need to go through these lessons. And I’m just like, do it. Just do it with awareness. Like, let us help you through it. We have a group for that. We have a community to where you can do this and you can play with fire and maybe not get as badly burned, right? You’re going to get a little burned up, maybe a little nicked, a little cut, but you’re going to be okay, right? You’re going to learn from the experience, and it’s just going to prepare you for a better situation down the road. And that way when that Mrs. Wright or Mr. Wright comes along, you’ve had these other experiences and you’re just so much more ready to be in a healthy, loving relationship because of them. I think that’s really the most logical and most likely outcome, I think, because people are no matter what you tell that teenager, don’t do this, of course they’re just going to do it. Right? It’s to say, don’t date that girl. She’s bad for you. Okay, I’m in for that.
Taylor [01:53:24]:
Do it. Go through with it. And make sure you have a community that you can lean on and talk about this stuff through because things are going to get kind of hard, like blurred hard to dissect between you and this other person. You’re going to need another community to help you process things and know your boundaries, know what you’re willing to do and not do and respect them and honor them.
Amir [01:53:46]:
Going it alone is like so if you’re gonna you’re you’re right. You’re gonna do it. Like, there’s only a point of discussing whether you’re gonna do actually gonna fucking do it, right. So, like, you’re gonna do it.
Taylor [01:53:54]:
Yeah.
Amir [01:53:55]:
Don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t go it alone. I think it’s the biggest point.
Taylor [01:53:58]:
That’s the biggest thing.
Robbie Kramer [01:53:59]:
Yeah. Love you guys. This was so much fun.
Amir [01:54:08]:
Super fun. Peace, bro.
Robbie Kramer [01:54:13]:
I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. If you’re new to the show and digging our content, please leave us a five star review on itunes, Stitcher, YouTube, wherever you listen or watch. But if you’re not really digging it, go ahead. Just don’t leave us any review at all. That’d be great. If you’re feeling a little bit stuck or you just want to optimize and step up your game, we’ve opened up a few spots in our inner confidence community. We’re accepting applications. If you want to join our select group of men and experience the radical power of accountability, cross everything off your sexual bucket list and just become a beast who gets more stuff done. To learn more and apply, go to start innerconfidence.com.
