230: Swipe Left on Traditional Dating Apps: The Rise and Rationality of Sugar Dating
(Full Episode Transcript Scroll To Bottom of Page)
Show Notes:
01:37 – The biggest topic discussed in the IC community: SUGAR DATING! – We dissect how sugar dating is miles better than traditional online dating!
04:28 – The stigma surrounding sugar daddying sites! – The future of online dating!
07:13 – Online dating sites have the same effect as gambling? – Host breaks down the “slot machine” effect online dating has!
09:28 – Tinder VS Seeking – Host tried both since they came out, find out the truth!
12:15 – Is Seeking “pay for play”? – Find out if it’s your fit!
15:22 – No game & No money VS Game & Money? – We discuss how to go about it and vice versa!
16:54 – The IC Community – Find out what type of people you can expect and what they are trying to achieve!
20:01 – Dating on Seeking VS Traditional dating: Protocol remains the same!
21:51 – Does Seeking have scammers? – Why you need help!
26:21 – What are the warning signs to look out for on Seeking? Find out how to pinpoint certain techniques scammers use!
33:56 – Red flags to look out for on Seeking! – Listen and learn!
37:20 – Hand jobs with a camel!? – We talk about what wild influencers do for money in Dubai!
40:04 – Is seeking for everyone? – Here are some tips that will help you out!
44:50 – How do you navigate yourself through Seeking? – Here is a secret list of what is most likely to convert and get you RESULTS!
51:14 – How to join the IC Community Discord – How to gain access to men’s elite dating group with the best advice that will make you successful in getting woman!
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Transcript
Robbie Kramer [00:00:00]:
If she’s a five in real life on Tinder, she’s like a seven and a half. Blaking is the new test. Online dating sites are popular for men because we get a dopamine hit. You sit on these apps and you’re swiping and you’re swiping. You’re just like, oh, maybe the next role, maybe the next role, maybe the next girl. That Sugar Daddying was the number one channel in the Discord server. It’s kind of like the Uber for hookers because I don’t want people thinking, oh, Robbie’s on here trying to train a bunch of salt daddies. Welcome to the Interconfidence podcast, where we bring you men’s dating and lifestyle advice that doesn’t suck. I’m your host, Robbie Kramer, a former collegiate golfer turned poker pro turned finance guy who became obsessed with learning about male female attraction and dynamics, and passionate about teaching men how to improve and optimize their love life. Tune in each week and we’ll bring you the latest and greatest strategies on how to get more dates, how to build a thriving social circle that brings the best men and women into your life, how to become a better networker, and how to design a lifestyle that makes all your buddies jealous. If you’re new to the show, I recommend you download my First Date Protocol. It’s the best piece of content I have. It’ll help you optimize your first date and subsequent dates. And I like to connect with my listeners personally, so if you want to grab a copy of that, please send me a direct message on Instagram. I’m at Robbie Kramer. Now, let’s dive into this week’s content.
St. Robert Daygame [00:01:16]:
And guys, here we are again with the lovely Robbie Kramer. And today we’re going to talk about a topic. A topic where you are sort of like the expert. And when I ask you, hey, do you have a lot of guys in your community who are into this stuff? You said that on your Discord channel, the biggest topic that guys talk about is sugar dating. So let’s talk about it. But let’s start with, can you define what sugar dating is? So just out of the bat, we know what we’re talking about for sure.
Robbie Kramer [00:01:55]:
Let me share my screen real quick and I’ll show you what I mean here. So in my Discord community, called the IC community, if you look at top channels down here, online dating is 490. Sugar Daddying, this is just for this week, was 443, right? And so, depending on the week, when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, sugar Daddying was the number one channel in the Discord server. And what I mean by Sugar Daddy let me kill the screen share here. Sugar Daddying is this phenomenon of using specific arrangement style sites to meet women. And it’s become incredibly popular, especially for guys late thirty s and up. And I’m 40. I tend to attract clients who are kind of around my age. I’d say most of my clients range from like early thirty s to early 60s. But more recently, I think I’ve gained a lot of followers interest from guys who are in their late thirty s to forty s and fifty s because they’re looking for some of these strategies, because they’re having no luck whatsoever on Tinder and Bumble and Hinge and all the traditional sort of dating apps and sites. And when you just do a dumb sort of research project and you look at the ratio of men to women on these traditional dating sites, you’re going to see it’s roughly four to one, men to women, right. And with any marketplace, when one side is severely overpopulated, you’re going to get a disjointed marketplace. So on traditional dating sites, women have all the power. There’s guys constantly hitting them up. So their average sort of market value, you could say if she’s a five in real life, on Tinder, she’s like a seven and a half, maybe an eight, depending on where you are, right. If you’re in like rural bumpfuck nowhere, she’s a nine.
St. Robert Daygame [00:03:55]:
Just because she’s a female, she’s a exactly.
Robbie Kramer [00:03:58]:
But when you look at these sugar daddying sites, and the biggest one being Seeking.com, formerly known as Seeking Arrangements, it’s got 40 million members, 32 million of those members are women. So a four to one ratio in the opposite direction, women to men. So right off the bat, just based on that supply and demand, you know, you have a much better shot as a guy to get your messages opened and read and actually get dates. And most people have this sort of stigma against these sugar daddying sites because like, oh, it’s just a bunch of hookers and John’s and yes, there are lots of hookers on those sites. It’s kind of like the Uber for hookers because it’s made a way for women who are in the oldest profession to easily connect with clients, right? So it has done that, of course. But with 40 million members, that’s too many or 32 million women. There’s not that many hookers, we would hope. I always say to any guy, be careful on these sugar dadding sites because it is like fishing with dynamite in a toxic lake, right. Because not only are there women on there who are just straight up pros, there’s going to be lots of women with all sorts of emotional issues. And not saying the men don’t have those either. You’re more likely to attract that sort of clientele, whereas a more traditional sort of girl is way more likely at a younger age at least, to try the standard Tinder, okaycupid. Or Match.com or all those sort of sites. But I have this sort of theory that I’ve been playing around with, and I really think that the sugar daddying phenomenon I think these sites are actually somewhat of the future of online dating and maybe not exactly sugar daddying sites, but traditional online dating. It fails to acknowledge the fact that women care most about status. Right. And seeking. And these other sugar daddying sites do a better job of this because these are the only sites that take into account the money piece of the equation, right? And money implies success, but it doesn’t imply status. Women have to figure that out. And with traditional online dating, women have no idea how successful a guy is. It’s very difficult for them to deduce what’s that guy’s status so they don’t take it very seriously, right? Like a high value woman will flake on almost all her first dates as a way to test a guy to see what his status is. If he can handle that, it’s like flaking is the new test, right? And they have a lot better opportunities to network and meet guys through their social through their social circle. Can’t talk today or just through traditional ways of meeting guys, maybe at the bars or at the clubs or even on the street. We, we both are huge fans of Day Game, right? And what I’ve seen from my group and the guys I coach, most guys are really having success in those two areas, online dating and sugar dating. And online dating sites are popular for men because we get a dopamine hit from Swiping. It’s literally like a slot machine in Vegas. You go there, you stick the quarter in, you’re hoping that next poll is going to result in the jackpot. And you sit on these apps and you’re swiping and you’re swiping. You’re just like, oh, maybe the next girl, maybe the next girl, maybe the next girl. And before you know it, you’ve been on there for 45 minutes and you feel like shit about yourself. And so they’re parading scantily clad women across our devices and we’re all failing miserably and we’re having terrible times on the apps. Even guys that are really good looking. I’ve got a couple of guys in my group who are like jacked, 26 year old Harvard students with some money, right? Like you don’t get higher sort of credentials than that. And they’re still dating way below their league on Tinder or on Hinge or Bumble. So again, it’s because of that imbalance in the marketplace. So even high value attractive men who should be succeeding are failing. And those guys are turning to sugar sites because there’s way less competition and there’s way more attractive women. So that’s kind of where I see online dating moving in that direction. There’s other sites called like, the league is one that isn’t sugar, but you need to be accepted by another member, which shows some status. Of course. Right? But that’s the issue. Women care most about status. Traditional online dating sites don’t show status. So girls are left with the big problem of filtering guys. While they can easily filter guys on these other sites.
St. Robert Daygame [00:08:54]:
This is sort of like a marketplace for fun. We might touch the topic later. I think this is mostly for fun, for guys that want access. There’s basically an online dating site where guys who have status or money or whatever who can have access to those girls, who they see on other online dating apps but never match with them. And when they match, they never respond. Am I getting this right?
Robbie Kramer [00:09:27]:
Or 100% right? I tried Tinder when it came out in 2011, 2012. I remember it really hit hard when I was living in New York City, and I was doing a ton of Day game at the time. Probably I was going out basically every day, getting in at least five to ten reps. And when Tinder came out, of course I got on there. I gave it a shot, but the quality was just never as good as day game or as meeting girls in the bars. And then when I tried Seeking for the first time, I think it was in 2016, the first thing I noticed was, oh, my God, these girls are like three points on average, better looking, and they’re messaging me, right? And at the time, Seeking was even way less popular. There were more pros on it, of course, but yeah, one guy will sign up for Tinder and he’ll get nothing, and then he’ll put the exact same profile on Seeking and he might have dates, a couple of dates a week. So it’s night and day. Really not saying everyone’s going to succeed on there. There’s some people who Seeking or Sugar daddying is for and there’s others who’s not. Right? If you have no money and no game, well, I really hope you have a six pack and you live in Eastern Europe or South America, because you’re probably not getting much of anything anywhere, right? No money, no game, and you’re no good looking and you’re short. Right? Like, sorry. What are you going to do?
St. Robert Daygame [00:10:59]:
Yes, unfortunately, whatever you do. That’s true.
Robbie Kramer [00:11:05]:
I don’t think those guys are listening to this.
St. Robert Daygame [00:11:09]:
I think some of them are. They just need a reality check about how all this really works and what you have to do to actually get results. Let’s address the elephant in the room before and later, I want to talk about what you said. Who is this poor and who is this not for? So let’s address the elephant in a room. Sugar dating versus Pay for play. Is it just a nicer softer version of fancier version of pay for play where we are kind of inexplicably doing the same thing, but it’s in a rosy way? Or is it something else?
Robbie Kramer [00:11:49]:
You can use it for that, but that’s not what I recommend, and I’m glad you asked that.
St. Robert Daygame [00:11:54]:
No, I don’t mean that. They are explicitly agreeing we’re going to have sex in the end. And I’m not saying this is the case. This is my opinion and this is the opinion a lot of people who are watching will have so that’s why I’m kind of addressing it in that way. So I think a lot of girls who are on those sites, from those 40 million, however many are women, a lot of them are there to get shiny things, money or gifts or whatever. And then you have the guys who are there because they know that they can’t give those gifts and they have so much money. Not everyone, but they have enough money to not care about those gifts or more expensive fancy dates and things like that. So in the end, it’s sort of like they’re still exchanging. They’re going out with each other for those kind of well, yes and no.
Robbie Kramer [00:12:54]:
I get what you’re saying. There’s a spectrum, right? On one end of the spectrum, of course, you have the pure gold diggers and the pure guys who are interested in easy pay for sex, pay for play, right? But on the other end of the spectrum, you have a girl who’s just looking for a boyfriend who’s not broke. And you do have that on seeking quite a bit in these other sugar sites because girls have been on Tinder and they keep meeting either losers or fuck boys who are all broke. And they’re like, I want to actually meet a guy with a career, so I’m going to go on a site that costs $100 a month because that filters out all the broke dicks.
St. Robert Daygame [00:13:39]:
Oh, Seeking cost $100 a month. I didn’t know that.
Robbie Kramer [00:13:42]:
Yeah. So just for that reason alone and the strategy that I recommend for guys, I’m like, hey, if you want to get hookers, I’m not teaching anyone to do that. That’s not my business, right? I’m teaching guys ways to build their dating funnels, whether that’s day game, night game, online dating, or sugar dating. And I want them to do it in a way that requires game and not cash, right? So I’m not against guys using money to enhance their game if they have the money to do it. But I’m not recommending substituting money for game at all because if you do substitute money for game, you’re going to end up with a woman who doesn’t actually love you, and that’s really going to suck. And I’ve seen that so many times. And I specifically say if you’re looking for a girlfriend, sugar daddying is probably not the place to start, right? Because most guys who are obsessed with finding a girlfriend, they’re coming from a place of scarcity. They’re not getting late at all, and they’re just like, I just want something, right? I don’t want to be involuntarily celibate. I want consistent connection, companionship, love, sex, all those things. And they’ll just take the fastest, easiest thing they can get. And that’s not what I’m talking about. Does that answer your question?
St. Robert Daygame [00:15:05]:
Yes. Basically what you said is that there are women who are not just looking for what everyone assumes girls are looking for on Seeking and you touched the topic of who is this for and who is this not for? So maybe let’s go there, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:15:25]:
So if you have no game, no money, then you need to improve your game and you need to stop, get a job and then you can improve your status. So guys with no game and money, you can have a better chance, like I said earlier, of finding the right hookers. But I’m not talking to those guys either. That’s not my specialty. But guys with game and a little bit of money or guys with game and a lot of money now you can really find a sweet spot for what sort of lifestyle you’re trying to build, right? So if you have crazy game and you’re like the broke musician living in his van down by the river, I wouldn’t recommend seeking. You should be able to do fine with bars, day game, even traditional online game like meet women in real life. But as a way to my recommendation for most guys is you need to get over your fear of rejection. You got to do day game. To do that you got to meet women in real life. And once you’re already in that process where you’re tackling your dating life head on, then I’m okay with them adding in sugar daddying as a way to get a ton of dates and to get a lot of experience going on dates, dealing with women, understanding women’s tests and building their dating funnels, you could say. So then if you want, I can talk about some different use cases depending on what you’re looking for.
St. Robert Daygame [00:16:57]:
So you mentioned previously that if you’re looking for a girlfriend then maybe sugar betting isn’t what do you want, what do you want to do in your community? What percentage of guys are in this whole thing of dating to find a girlfriend and what percentage is just to have some fun?
Robbie Kramer [00:17:23]:
Every guy I talk to that joins my community basically wants the same thing. They want to improve their game, have maximum fun and options in the short run, and position themselves for a potential partner in the long run. Maybe they’re thinking monogamous, maybe they’re thinking open relationship or anything that falls under the category of non monogamy. A lot of them don’t know because they haven’t had the experience to make that choice yet. But that’s typically what I see, right? Guys who are so thirsty for a girlfriend, it’s like I said earlier, they’re coming from a place of extreme scarcity and they need to learn to spin plates and to get that experience. And then once they do, then they’re like, okay, I thought I wanted a girlfriend, but maybe I don’t. Maybe I actually just want to have a lot of fun and learn myself, understand myself. I mean, see what type of women I’m into and then make that choice. I think going, using anytime, you’re very fixated on finding the one or finding a girlfriend, you’re operating from a very dangerous mental headspace where you’re setting yourself up for trouble.
St. Robert Daygame [00:18:34]:
Yeah, because normally before I work with someone, when they sign up for coaching, I ask, okay, what do you want? Because there are three types of guys. Guys that want to sleep with beautiful women forever and ever.
Robbie Kramer [00:18:45]:
Right.
St. Robert Daygame [00:18:45]:
There are guys that want a wife on yesterday. And there are guys who want to have fun for a while, improve their game so that in the future, when they’ve had their fun, when they had their adventures, they can start a relationship with the quality of women they didn’t have access to before or don’t have at that moment when they reach out to me. And I would say most guys I work with right now are actually from the third group, guys who want to have fun and then start kind of the same as you. And then of course, there are some guys who just want to have some want to have fun forever. And when someone wants a wife yesterday, I just kind of tell them that maybe I’m not the right guy for you because it’s going to fail anyways.
Robbie Kramer [00:19:28]:
Right.
St. Robert Daygame [00:19:29]:
In most cases, I mean, good stories happen, but they are exceptions. They’re not the rules. Okay, now that we’ve established that, we talked about who’s a typical guy doing that. So you’re saying that it’s better that he already has some experience in other types of game and then he wants to add sugar dating as another way to get women in his funnel, as you like to call it. I like the term the funnel, by the way. I like it. Let’s address then another question. Average cost of a date when you’re going out with a girl from Seeking because let’s say someone’s going out with a girl from Day game and all you’re going to do is you’re going to basically pay for four drinks, two venues, one drink each and you’re going to pull. Some guys will do dinners just because they have enough game to not do well during dinners. And that’s completely fine in my eyes as well, if you know what you’re doing. But that’s going to be your cost of the day, like a few drinks, maybe a dinner, if that’s your thing. And that’s a small percentage. So what about sugar dating? What’s the average cost of if you’re talking about fun? So how much are guys going to spend before it gets laid?
Robbie Kramer [00:20:53]:
I suggest the guys don’t change their dating strategy at all. Whether they meet her through Day Game or Sugar Daddying, I tell them to do the same thing. And my dating protocol is probably very similar to yours, I think. I do three venues and then the poll, but the third venue for traditional.
St. Robert Daygame [00:21:10]:
Places, I do three more for traditional when I need more comfort.
Robbie Kramer [00:21:15]:
Right? And that third venue is always like a couple’s experience that doesn’t really involve a venue, per se. It could be walking through the park or going to an arcade or hitting golf ball, something that you would already do once you’ve kind of made out with her and you guys are now like she’s not quite ready to come home with you, but you want to kind of build the sexual tension, so same deal. And that’s a great way to screen whether or not she’s looking for an actual connection or she’s looking to get photos on her Instagram of going to a nice dinner. You can screen girls based on how they respond to the date request, right? We can get into that in a second and maybe I can show some posts in the group to give examples of scams or girls that are very much sort of gold digging. And there is a learning curve for this, right. If you go into this arena without help and trying to do it on your own, especially if your game isn’t already very good, you are probably going to get low level, not scammed, but you’ll get played, you could say, yeah.
St. Robert Daygame [00:22:30]:
You’Ll pay for a dinner. Exactly. You’ll probably pay for her to come out with you on a dinner. I think that’s one thing that a lot of girls kind of do. They ask for money just to come out with you.
Robbie Kramer [00:22:41]:
Yeah, they do. And they call that Ppm pay per meet. Right. And the more strict a girl is about her requirements, you know that she’s probably more experienced on the site, right. And she’s kind of leaning on that spectrum towards a girl who’s probably not worth your time. Right. Like I always tell my clients, you want to actually filter for newbies on the site, right? And you can do that. You can filter by date.
St. Robert Daygame [00:23:09]:
You’ve told this actually before on the previous times you’ve talked about chatted a little bit about this topic. You said that it’s an important thing to look for girls that are fresh, right?
Robbie Kramer [00:23:19]:
And you don’t want to waste girls time either. I don’t want people thinking, oh, Robbie’s on here trying to train a bunch of salt daddies to scam girls on seeking. That’s not what I’m trying to do because there are a lot of girls who are looking for that boyfriend experience and there’s a lot of guys in my group that have a little bit of disposable income and they’re going to go and do cool shit with girls anyways. Like, maybe they own a boat and they like to take girls out on their boat, right. Or maybe they like to go to fancy dinners. Obviously they’re not going to do that on the first date and look like a beta male provider. But they do do nice things because they have the resources to do them and they’re just looking for the right type of girl to do that with. And that girl exists on seeking and it doesn’t need to be a pay per meet, right? So you can totally find what you’re looking for as long as you’re savvy about it.
St. Robert Daygame [00:24:15]:
So basically it sounds like I’m personally not interested in trying it just because.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:23]:
For different you’re a day game fucking beast. Right?
St. Robert Daygame [00:24:27]:
When I started we’re going to talk deeper about this when we do another podcast episode with you. But I am in a relationship.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:37]:
Oh, really?
St. Robert Daygame [00:24:38]:
There are some extra rules to this relationship. But she’s another room. She’s in the other room. So I don’t want to go into it right now.
Robbie Kramer [00:24:46]:
Well, if you weren’t, I could probably convince you to give it a try.
St. Robert Daygame [00:24:52]:
What I was going to say is that even though I’m not interested in it, but knowing my lifestyle and how rich my life is and I am in no way loaded, but I am probably living way better than 95% of people in big part of the world where I live. So I could probably if what you’re saying, if I if I implemented your advice correctly, I could probably do right, do okay, sugar dating. If I learned to filter and let’s continue down the same line, the same path of risks to avoid things not to do. Because let’s say someone hears what you’re saying now and is also saying, wait, this sounds like a story about me. I’m doing well enough in my life. I’m not broke. I’m doing pretty good. I might try this, but I’m afraid everyone’s telling me that I need to pay like, 300 for them to just have a lunch, like a dinner with me or I think it’s more than 300.
Robbie Kramer [00:26:00]:
Obviously, that’s typically around what it is. Two to 300 most girls will ask for. Yeah.
St. Robert Daygame [00:26:06]:
And they know that this is the obstacle they’re going to hit. So is there a simple way to deal with it or is it already something more advanced that they should learn by joining your discord channel and learning about it there? Or is there something simple you can kind of give away as a teaser?
Robbie Kramer [00:26:25]:
So one basic principle is if a girl messages you first with a very sort of clear cut pitch, she’s probably angling, she might be a dude. That’s one thing you got to look out for is the girl who messages you and tries to get you to send her money before the date. And it’s usually due to some health condition, surgery upcoming. And those are usually guys, right? Anyone who is writing a lot and talking a lot typically are guy scammers. So if you’re not smart about it, you might get fleeced for a couple of $100 here or there. Never agree to send a girl money before you actually meet her face to face. Right now, I do have one client who will pay a Ppm on the first meeting, but that’s it, right? Because he realizes there’s a lot of girls who are hot and cool who are trying to filter out. So he’ll pay the, whatever, $200 for that first meeting, and then once the date has gone along and they’re attracted and they’ve made out, then he’ll kind of hit them with like, yeah, by the way, the Ppm thing ain’t going to happen with me, right? And at that point, they already like him, so they don’t care, right? Because they’ve already like, okay, he’s not the typical lame, old, disgusting, boring sugar daddy who’s going to take me to a long, boring dinner and tell me about his wine collection. So there aren’t really any specific rules for never pay Ppm, but on the first meeting, that’s going to depend on your level of wealth. Like, for him, $200, he doesn’t give a shit. He runs two companies, he has plenty of money. So $200 for him is like, fine, that’s just a great way to avoid a flake. He’d rather pay $200 to not get a flake than deal with that wasting of his time, because his time is worth way more than that, right?
St. Robert Daygame [00:28:29]:
Is there like an escrow service? Should we show up for a date? I get my 200 back.
Robbie Kramer [00:28:35]:
They should offer that. That’d be pretty interesting, actually.
St. Robert Daygame [00:28:38]:
That would make more sense.
Robbie Kramer [00:28:39]:
My friend who I used to run the Playboy trips with in Ukraine, actually started a site in Ukraine. This was before the war. It was called, I think, tolka Uzin or Just Dinner. Or Something. Or Not Only Dinner. And the idea was he was the intermediary. So girls would put their price to go on a date, right? The guys would pay into the account and when they showed up, the money was released. So he was like the airbnb of non flaking reasonable. Yeah. Right? And then he got involved with other projects, so he never saw it through. But let me show you in the discord. Let me show you an example. I think this is pretty illustrating. All right, so you can see my screen here, right?
St. Robert Daygame [00:29:30]:
Yes.
Robbie Kramer [00:29:31]:
It’s everyone. Elisa, 24 seeking where met seeking dates had zero bait out. No slept with no. She messaged me on seeking, asking to go straight to WhatsApp? As soon as I did, she’s immediately asking to meet up to me. It seems like someone trying to scam me. Her profile says she’s a dancer and yoga teacher, so maybe there’s a connection there. But no girls just into someone as forwardly as that from the get go. My inclination is to ask for her Instagram or a live picture so that she proves her identity. So here’s the message. Hey, I hope you are well. She’s got eight photos, right? She looks legit. London, England 24 hey, I hope you’re well. I’m looking for a fun and uncomplicated dates where we can connect and share great conversation and memories such as dinners, drinks, sexual intimacy, et cetera. Possibly moving to something long term in return for an allowance that suits us both to support. My dreams of yoga and dance. It’s quite direct, but I feel we would be a great match. So if you’re free sometime, let’s not waste time and arrange a date. Are you on? WhatsApp? If so, please message me there as I am hardly on the site. Won’t receive notifications. Here Elisa, right? And he said sure, texting you now. And then he says hey Lisa, it’s music maker from Seeking. My name is X. You’ll have to edit this part out.
St. Robert Daygame [00:30:51]:
His name yes.
Robbie Kramer [00:30:52]:
Nice to meet you. Hey, thanks so much for agreeing to chat on here. Much easier. It’s quite spontaneous. But if you’re free, would you like to meet tomorrow or Friday? Here is me. Do you have any picks you could share too? So before I go on, I’m curious, what are your thoughts so far? Obviously, you know, this is likely a chance.
St. Robert Daygame [00:31:11]:
It’s way too direct. So I would not go out. I would chat a bit more and if I went out, I would probably leave the good watches at home and things like that.
Robbie Kramer [00:31:27]:
Right.
St. Robert Daygame [00:31:31]:
Where I have volubles. Right. But when you are out with someone, you usually kind of well, although I’ve had some cases. So yeah, I’ll be very careful.
Robbie Kramer [00:31:41]:
So my basic take and usually I ask the guys to tag the more experienced daddies. I don’t pretend to be the most experienced sugar daddy in the site. In fact, I never really used Seeking for anything but to build my social circle back in 2017. So I am not the expert on this. I am sort of channeling the other guys in the community. But for the other guys, we’ve got four of them who are quite active, these four screen names here. So I say tag those guys. But my advice is let’s just exchange Instagrams. Easier to suss each other out on there. Just send that message. Because if she’s legit, if she’s not a dude, she’s going to have an Instagram. Right? Like any girl who tells you I don’t have an Instagram is probably lying, right? So he says nice and cool. I could say that. And yes would be good to get the experience fellow’s take on it. And I said remember to tag them next time. Yes, we’ll do. EJ says, hey JT this is unusual to have a woman so eager to meet before any other conversation. I agree. Proceed with caution. Instagramming first is a great idea. At minimum, I would think she’s a prostitute. But even then you want to agree on price. First and very recent join date tells me this person had to create a new account because maybe previous accounts was reported. Hey. Yes. Agree. The whole thing is fishy. I’ll ask for the Instagram, see what she or whichever motherfucker is running this number does. He says. Yeah. Looks weird. I never give my number when they ask for the first message. Instagram is the best way out. If it’s a real instagram. I would then send a voice message saying, you are happy to know she’s a real person and not the fake profile or some horny grandmother trying to see you naked. And then this guy, who’s our most experienced guy on there, scam. Sorry, bro. Real girls don’t chase strangers, even on seeking. And he says, I agree with you all. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Then he closed the thread. So he did send the Instagram thing and she never responded. So that’s double confirmation that it was a scam. Indeed.
St. Robert Daygame [00:33:37]:
So if someone starts to play around with this, then the best kind of rule for cases like that do not get scammed is to make sure you connect on Instagram to make sure it’s a real person. Any other safety rules that you, like, guys follow specifically? I assume there are some risks.
Robbie Kramer [00:34:00]:
Yeah, you never know, right? Like, people can always be running an elaborate scam. And I encountered the same thing, actually, with the first time I went to Hungary. I met a girl and she was extremely interested in getting me to meet her at a specific bar. Then she ran the typical scam where you get the bill in the end, it’s like €150 instead of 15, right. And there’s a couple tough looking guys who aren’t going to let you leave until you pay. So you see that one, right? So anytime a girl is extremely adamant about where you’re meeting, huge red flag, don’t go out with her, right? You’re the guy, you need to pick the venue. Or if she’s like, I only want to go to this sort of restaurant. Huge red flag there, right. Basically, if they’re extremely inflexible, I would avoid. Also if they’re filtering you. Yeah, they’re filtering you. If you feel like you’re being put through a filter, then you probably are.
St. Robert Daygame [00:34:59]:
And I think it’s a great opportunity for these women because if you look at who they’re filtering for, they are filtering for there’s definitely a part of just God there. There’s definitely part of the audience in these sites that are guys that have incredibly bad dating life and they thought, well, I’m going to throw money at girls and this is going to work. And they’re probably targeting those guys that you’ll go for. Whatever. And although a funny story is I know a girl who is doing sugar painting and it was pay for meat or something like that. There was a scam going around in Latvia where you would transfer someone money with a banking app. They would see the transfer go through on your app. It’s actually a fake app and it never goes through. And this guy transferred her money for the meeting. I think she ended up sleeping with him and then saw that it never went through. But, you know, if that’s what you’re after, that’s what you’re going to get. Someone’s going to play you for that. And karma is a bitch.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:09]:
Yeah, for sure.
St. Robert Daygame [00:36:12]:
Okay. So another thing I wanted to maybe you’ve heard some stories, but I recently watched a few videos on YouTube about what happens in Dubai.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:23]:
Okay. The sugar capital of the world.
St. Robert Daygame [00:36:27]:
Have you seen those videos?
Robbie Kramer [00:36:29]:
I haven’t. Well, I mean, I my former business partner is the guy who got arrested. I wouldn’t say business partner. That’s a stretch. Former wingman. The guy I used to do the Playboy trips with. And we never made money off those. Those are just for our own fun. But he’s the guy who got arrested as the butt squad leader with the 18 naked girls on the balcony in Dubai, which made international news.
St. Robert Daygame [00:36:52]:
I’ve seen photos.
Robbie Kramer [00:36:56]:
I’ve never been to Dubai. I don’t know a whole lot about it, except I told him when I dropped him off at the airport that day. I’m like, don’t do what you usually do with the naked girls and the photos in Dubai because you’re a Jewish guy and they’re not going to like you very much if you’re doing that shit. And he’s like, they don’t care. They love it. I’m like, okay, behind closed doors. But then he spent a month and a half in Dubai prison. Yes. Anyway, sorry, what was your question?
St. Robert Daygame [00:37:26]:
I looked at a few videos on YouTube because the title was just, oh, What Happens. You won’t believe what these Instagram influencers are doing in Dubai. And this video went over how basically in Dubai, sex before marriage, I’ve heard is illegal, or something like that. But these guys are like, they’re billionaires, so they have shitload of money. And what they do is they basically message Instagram influencers and models, like working real models on Instagram, offering them shitload of cash to come on Dubai and do completely fucking shit.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:09]:
Yeah.
St. Robert Daygame [00:38:10]:
And then there were some texts leaked. There was a video message leaked where a girl was kind of reading, okay, I’m going to Dubai for this much money, and this is what we’re going to do. And it was something like the offers were so the girl is going down. She’s getting 50K. She’s going down. She’s spending the first day with that guy and the next day with the guy’s 13 year old brother who is a virgin.
Robbie Kramer [00:38:34]:
Dude, I’ve heard those stories too. It’s sketchy as fuck what goes.
St. Robert Daygame [00:38:38]:
And that’s the soft part. That’s the soft part. The other stories were Piss Play, Scat Play, hand jobs with a camel and just incredible things. And there have been guys who were trolling these girls. They were messaging, they were pretending to be these Dubai billionaires and seeing how much they can get away with and what these girls would agree to. And one girl was talking about her experiences doing that, and she was, from what I understand, like a working model who makes really good money from modeling. And she would also go to these events where she’s going there with someone, and she would just recognize other models that she knows.
Robbie Kramer [00:39:27]:
Oh yeah, it’s very popular. A lot of my girlfriends from Ukraine get those offers all the time, right. A sheikh or chic, however you want to call them, will be like ten k a day plus all expenses plus shopping money. Right. And it’s like, well, what do you got to do for that ten k don’t want to know. Right, but that’s like the world capital of that sort of stuff. Yeah.
St. Robert Daygame [00:39:55]:
So I was just wondering whether you’ve heard things like that as well. And you have. So that’s interesting because you spend a lot of time in Ukraine. Okay. Is there anything else you want to cover when it comes to the sugar dating? Anything else we should know?
Robbie Kramer [00:40:08]:
Yeah, I have kind of like a best practices, like a list for all the guys who are interested in trying Seeking. What I’d recommend the first is to try out a lot of dates without preconceptions. Try to go into it with an open mind and go on a bunch of dates. Don’t invest any energy whatsoever into a lead you haven’t met. Like literally only text and logistics. That’s it. And the beauty of Seeking or other sugar sites is you can be very direct, like direct wins, whereas Tinder right, you got to come with all sorts of game. Another great strategy is if you’re going to go on dates, double or triple book every single date because you’re going to expect about a 60% to 75% flake rate, right? So if you triple book, odds are one will show up and then you won’t end up doing nothing that night. And guys will be like, oh, that’s rude to triple book and blah, blah, blah. It’s not right. I’m not saying directly flake on the girl, just don’t show up. Book all three, and if one is definitely showing up, you just message the other girls, hey, sorry, something came up. My apologies come over your schedule, right? Because women are doing that to you all the time. That’s part of dating. I have a lot of guys in the group who’ll give me some pushback on that, and then they’ll get flaked on like a million times and they’re like, fuck this. Okay, fine. So save yourself the trouble. If you’re that guy, this is really important. After you meet her on Seeking or the other site, block her because if she didn’t like you, she could be vindictive and she could report your profile. And if you get reported, you’re banned and then you have to start a new profile. So it could be for something as silly and stupid as like she just didn’t find you attractive and she had a bad day. The following day she’s like, fuck that guy, I’m going to report him. Right? So if you block her immediately, then she can’t see you and she can’t report you. So that’s what I recommended. There stressed way less over money right? If you’re really stressed about money, don’t use these sites. They are not for you. Learn traditional game. Learn to meet women in real life for free. Or improve your luck on those other free dating sites. Women can’t make you pay. It’s your choice, right? So if you’re stressing over money, you’re worried that she’s going to be making you pay, you don’t belong there. And stop treating them like regular sort of. Well, I just said you want to treat them like regular dates. Like once they’re on the date, but before you’re on the date, don’t treat them like regular dates. This is a direct, masculine, frame only. And online game where you’re sending the hehe ha ha stuff doesn’t really work that well. I think for guys to really have success, you actually want to be able to afford to take girls to nice places and to potentially help them out financially, just like you would a girlfriend. Right? Like every girl I’ve ever dated, I’ve had more money than her, I’ve been more successful than her, and of course I’m going to help her out with money or something when that comes along, that’s pretty normal, right? And if you’re not in a situation where you could do that or if you want to split everything and go Dutch, then I wouldn’t recommend this as a strategy. So in terms of what’s most likely to actually convert, you don’t want to spend a lot of time messaging a girl who you can’t meet up immediately. Like same day meetings, 30 to 45 minutes for a quick coffee or a drink at venue one, and then decide if you want to go to venue two. Only schedule dates one to two days out. Right? If you schedule more than three or four days out, you’re just going to get flakes. It’s a waste of time. If she’s not free, just send her a message. Awesome. I’ll follow up later in the week to schedule something. Phone call at her suggestion on the spot. So if she asks for a phone call immediately, call her phone call at your suggestion on the spot. And then that’s actually going to convert to right. So like, calling her calling at a specific scheduled time is also okay, but less likely. So these are kind of like in order of what’s most likely to convert versus least I can send you this list.
St. Robert Daygame [00:44:44]:
Can you share it on the screen?
Robbie Kramer [00:44:46]:
Yeah, I can share it. Here we go. Present.
St. Robert Daygame [00:44:48]:
You guys will see it here. I’ll make it kind of window notes.
Robbie Kramer [00:44:54]:
So these seven things are the order of what’s most likely to convert, right? And also on here, notice I don’t have an option for three to seven day out meeting. This instead goes into number three flow. Right? Half the time they’ll follow up with me and I’ll do that. So to win it seeking, you have to be direct as fuck. Make everything incredibly simple. For them. Even something as easy as, like, calling them the Uber, having the Uber show up to pick them up and bringing them to the venue. You want to remove all friction whatsoever. So here’s our kind of standard opening line. This converts usually to a phone number or an Instagram immediately. Like, you send this, you got the number and it’s, you look lovely. I’m experienced with Seeking based out of Austin or wherever you are. I prefer a quality connection rather than a one time solace meeting. So if we have great chemistry, I’m open to something ongoing. I know how to make this experience easy and fun and to make sure you get what you want. If you want a ce, feel free to send me your number or Instagram talk soon, your name. So if she doesn’t respond, usually they respond right away with their Instagram or their number, because they’re not getting this message. They’re either getting gamey guys who are trying to do some other shit, or they’re getting guys with horrible profiles that are just gross sugar daddies with they’re not interested in. And then if she doesn’t respond and you really like her, you probably will rarely have to send this one, because most girls will respond. Hi, you didn’t seem to see my message. Perhaps you have too many and not read them all. Have not read them all. Maybe you’re just playing hard to get. Here’s a reminder just in case. Right? Super simple. A line I’ve been using that works great. When these girls start saying these things about I’m not an escort is in my experience, most women on Seeking are looking to date a real man who has a shit together, but they will settle for money if that’s all they can find. That’s kind of like the standard opening looking down here. Okay, so how exactly did that convo go? So this is one guy who’s kind of got, like, a response when a girl says, like, what are you looking for? Right? Or Why are you on the site? That’s one you’ll get. So I’m out of a nasty marriage, finishing stages of a two year divorce. I want the ten week be my boyfriend conversation and ensuing breakup to go away. I’ll happily use money to make that go away. I also like to have parties. I’m recruiting cool people to come to those. Also down to just go on dates and stuff. If you’re not the jealous type. I’ve only had good reactions. Most girls say they want number three. I’ve been finding that number three don’t always react well to a party invite. I’ve gotten two ones right, and I have tried Ppm with one of those to see how it feels. Probably like five plus are in the three category. Probably only one girl enthusiastically in the two category. I also think there are probably a bunch of in three that want one but don’t want to tell me because they are into me, they’ll probably seek one with some other dude. So that was pretty interesting.
St. Robert Daygame [00:47:56]:
Wait, so I didn’t understand what this was. So this is when a girl asks, what is the guy looking for?
Robbie Kramer [00:48:05]:
No, maybe I set that up wrong. This is basically yeah, sorry. That is right. When she asks, what are you interested in? What are you looking for? He’ll say, I’m out of a nasty marriage. I’m finishing stages of my two year divorce. Right. Which is positioning himself for like, yeah, maybe I want something, but I’m not ready to jump into something immediately. I’m just jumping out of that. What he wants is the ten week be my boyfriend conversation and ensuing breakup to go away. Right. He might not actually say this. I think since we came out with this, we’ve changed the verbiage a little bit around this. I might be able to share some screenshots in the discord to give you.
St. Robert Daygame [00:48:47]:
A better example, but basically in your discord channel. So when people join it and they have questions about sugar dating because that’s the biggest conversation topic, you have experienced guys giving answers to those questions there, is that correct?
Robbie Kramer [00:49:08]:
Yeah. So I’ll show you that channel. We’ve got a lot of experienced guys and it’s very simple. They go under this category here, which is Sugar Daddying, right?
St. Robert Daygame [00:49:21]:
Yes.
Robbie Kramer [00:49:22]:
Because we also have a lot of guys approaching. Right. We’ve got stats on who’s approaching and what they’re doing and monthly progress, that sort of thing. This is for day game, but if they’re doing the Sugar Daddying, then they’ll literally go in here and they’ll throw up a post. And here’s an example. What do you guys think about this? Am I going to get scammed? I’ve been too scared to meet up with seeking girls. Don’t want to get in the situation where they ask for money at my place or whatever. Really just looking to take girls on normal dates at pretty high end places like I normally do. Right. And then he posts a screenshot. And this is a guy who is using a combination of game because he isn’t rich enough to just kind of not use any game, but that’s why he’s encountering a little bit of trouble. But you can see he’s using one of the scripts, I think from playing with Fire, you seem to have a few of my weaknesses. And her response is, I’m so sorry, Daddy, I really got busy with work, but I’m free today. What are you looking for on here? An emotional connection with an amazing girl to invest in long term and you sounds so much like what I’m looking for. I’m interested in a friend with benefits relationship. Will you be interested in meeting? Right. So my response is she’s probably a Ppm girl. She called you Daddy right off the bat. She’s running hooker game on you. Thoughts? True, dad agree. Right. So that’s the sort of stuff that guys are posting in here. Okay.
St. Robert Daygame [00:50:49]:
We went over what is sugar dating, how it’s different from pay for play. Turns out that’s why I did this, because I wanted to figure this stuff out and ask those questions that I assumed a lot of people have, and you gave very good answers. You actually explained this in a way where it makes sense for some guys to do this, especially as long as they understand the rule, they understand what’s happening, and turns out it’s much better than it seemed in the beginning. And let’s say someone wants to try this out and they want some advice on how to do it. So how do they join your discord channel? Is it for some members only of your program or how does it work?
Robbie Kramer [00:51:33]:
Yeah, to be in the Discord, you have to be part of the inner confidence community. Guys can apply for that at Start Innerconfidence.com and that will explain who it’s for and whether or not it’s a good fit. And then if you think it might be a good fit, you’ll jump on a phone call with me and we’ll make sure it’s a good fit. And I can explain all the different options for pricing and all that stuff, and you can join the community and we can set you on your sugar daddying journey. And like I said, it’s not for everybody and it can be a great strategy if utilized correctly, and you can avoid the scams. And the guys in my group are having a lot of success because we’re helping each other out, trying to do this on your own, you’re probably going to waste a lot more time and money than if you would have joined a group like this and get the support.
St. Robert Daygame [00:52:26]:
Okay, so I will link to the URL you just told me. I’ll link it in the description of this podcast, whether someone’s watching on YouTube or listening to this on Spotify or Apple podcasts if they want to join, so they can get in touch with you if they are interested. Robbie, thank you very much for enlightening me and the guys who have listened, who listened this far and looking forward to have another conversation for you in the future. Thank you.
Robbie Kramer [00:52:57]:
Awesome. Thanks, St. Robert. It’s always awesome coming on the show with you. I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. If you’re new to the show and digging our content, please leave us a five star review on itunes, Stitcher, YouTube, wherever you listen or watch. But if you’re not really digging it, go ahead. Just don’t leave us any review at all and that’d be great. If you’re feeling a little bit stuck or you just want to optimize and step up your game, we’ve opened up a few spots in our inner confidence community. We’re accepting application. If you want to join our select group of men and experience a radical power of accountability, cross everything off your sexual bucket list and just become a beast who gets more stuff done. To learn more and apply, go to start innerconfidence.com.
